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Comments by DavidHowe
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Ok, it's here. The general comments page. Have at it!!
We might also mention Realm Chess. I'm still trying to find Betza's Pinwheel Chess on our site, but so far have been unsuccessful. Perhaps we need to add it?
While I agree that discussions of new game ideas are valuable, I don't think they are appropriate for the feedback and rating system. It's better to keep the discussions relating to a particular page on our internal feedback system, and use our discussion group when the commentary digresses to new game ideas. The discussion group has many more features than my crude feedback system, so I think it's better to use that. That is, unless you want me to build a discussion group system that lives on the chess variant pages... :)
Ok, I'll look into extending the feedback system to allow some sort of
message threading based on something other than existing pages. I
understand why people do not like the yahoo group system, although it does
have some nice features. Give me a few days to come up with something.
Ok guys, I've created a minimal discussion system. Feel free to start using
it (and breaking it). I still have more work to do, but it's basically
functional. Please do let me know if you have any particular requests or
criticisms (or kudos :)...
I just visted <a href='http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=rec.games.chinese-chess'>rec.games.chinese-chess</a> on dejanews.com and it appears as if the FAQ hasn't been updated in some years. If anyone knows where we can get an up-to-date (or more up-to-date) FAQ document, please contact us. Thanks.
Project Gutenberg also has Edward Lasker's 'Chess and Checkers: The Way to Mastership'. Here's a link to it. If enough folks want this on our site as a web page, I'll create it. Otherwise, here's the link to it on PG's web site: <a href='http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext04/lchch10.txt'>Chess and Checkers: The Way to Mastership</a> (text file).
Good point John -- I have changed the default to 25. Now the question is,
should the default be summary mode or detail mode??
I'm considering adding a section to the Chess Variant Pages for chess
eBooks. Right now I'm aware of only two: Chess History and Reminiscences by
H.E. Bird, and Edward Lasker's Chess and Checkers: The Way to Mastership.
Both are Project Gutenberg files. Does anyone know of any other online
chess eBooks?
I've heard vague rumours that this game, or a game very much like it, is still played at Miskatonic University... The excellent rating applies to presentation and originality. I have not playtested this game (yet). Truth be told, I'm not sure I *want* to! :)
I wish I had thought of this! The idea of finding the weakest possible pieces that still provide a chess-like game is inspired. For some reason, it reminded me of my attempt to create a <a href='../newideas.dir/construction.html'>chess variant construction set</a>. The concept of a flipping move to switch between capture-only and move-only is something I never thought of. On the whole, a well-thought-out, and aesthetically pleasing game. I must try it out sometime!
It's an interesting idea, but would make for a more positional game with
more trading off of material. I would recommend these Rook-level pieces
perhaps for larger variants which would still include the usual knights
and
bishops.
Continuing Peter's idea from his 'Alice Chess' comment on <a href='../diffmove.dir/monochro.html'>Monochromatic Chess</a>...
<p>I don't like the idea that Bishops would be restricted to their initial board. Perhaps giving the bishops a non-capturing wazir move would fix this. Option 3 is also a nice idea (the switch-a-roo).
<p>On the whole, I like this set of ideas. Perhaps it can be developed, with some play-testing, into a workable variant of Alice Chess, although Alice Chess itself is difficult enough to play... :)
<i>NOTE: the email address and phone number listed on the site appear to be non-responsive. It appears as if this company may be out of business. Anyone knowing any more information, please contact us.</i>
<p>--Editors.
I have made a change in the comment listing page. All non-HTML comments that are over 20 lines long are truncated at 20 lines with a link to view the entire comment. This was done is response to unusually long comments. I am not complaining about these comments, just trying to reduce the amount of scrolling required when browsing. Feel free to make alternate suggestions as this feedback/messaging system is a work-in-progress.
Truncating a comment which contains HTML code is non-trivial. Strange things happen when closing tags get truncated off the end. So, I have nothing against HTML-based comments, but since truncating them would involve much more work, I chose to simply avoid. My alternate approach may be to use a smaller font.
For those who constantly check the what's new page, I have created the 'Minimal New' page, which just gives a short summary on when the latest comment was made, and when the latest item was added or updated. The address is: http://www.chessvariants.com/index/new.php
Ultima Variants. See <a href="http://www.chessvariants.com/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=243">Peter Aronson's comment</a>.
<br>Ultimate Ultima. See <a href="http://www.chessvariants.com/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=237">Gnohmon's comment</a>.
More comments may be found in the
<a href='http://www.chessvariants.com/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=YellowJournalism'>YellowJournalism</a> discussion.
I appreciate all the feedback, especially constructive criticism. Please do keep me advised of what you like, and especially what you don't like. I will continue to develop and hopefully improve this system. But also keep in mind that this is part-time, volunteer work for me, so I prefer to keep things simple and easy.
I have an idea for self-captured pieces: a self-captured piece cannot be dropped to a square which is threatened by a friendly piece. This should alleviate the use of self-captured pieces to checkmate or block checks.
It would be nice to have a full, comprehensive article on Chess Handicapping. Anyone out there want to volunteer?
This is an interesting idea. Here's a logical extension of it:
<p>In 2d chess (thinking in the abstract), pieces are 0 dimensional (ie. points) that move in a line (1 dimensional movement).
<p>Perhaps in 3d chess, pieces could be 1 dimensional (ie. line segments) that move (as suggested) in a 2 dimensional plane. Their direction of movement would be constant, it would simply be their area of movement that would cover a two dimensions.
<p>In the diagram below, the 3d Rook piece at [a1,d1] could move to [a2,d2] or [a3,d3]. It would be blocked by the 3d Bishop piece at [c4,d4]. It could, however move to [a1,d1] on the next level up, assuming no friendly pieces are blocking it. However for the 3d Rook to move to the other half of the board (ie. files e-h) it might have to rotate. Or then again, perhaps in that direction it only covers a single rank instead of a plane.
<pre>
+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | 6
+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | 5
+---+---+---+---+
| | |---B---| 4
+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | 3
+---+---+---+---+
| | | | | 2
+---+---+---+---+
|-------R-------| 1
+---+---+---+---+
a b c d
</pre>
I was thinking of a setup such as:
<p>Each piece is a vertical line of length 4. The leftmost white Rook (for example) would initially occupy a1 on levels 3 though 6. The leftmost white Knight would occupy b1 on levels 3 through 6. Etc. Black pieces would occupy similar positions on levels 3 through 6.
<p>Rotation would be allowed, but only allowing pivot points on the ends of the lines. Rotation would require an entire move and capture by rotation would not be allowed. For white pawns that have been rotated to be horizontal, forward is up. For black pawns, forward would be down. Pawn promotion would still only occur on the last rank (and not the last level).
Adrian should be getting email whenever a comment is made on one of his pages. I can also forward email to Adrian if anyone wishes to contact him.
'can a king switch places with a pawn when in check?'
<p>The answer is no. A king may never switch places with a pawn, whether in check or not.
Here's another thought: Why not take HJR Murray's 'A Brief History of Chess', and Project-Gutenberg-ize it? That would be phase 1. Phase 2: Take HJR's 'History of Chess' and Guten-ize it (ie. produce an ebook version).
Of course, phase 2 would be a huge job. Anyone know if these two books are public domain yet? HoC was published in the early 1900's. If anyone else is interested in doing this, I could check with the folks at PG.
<p>Thinking smaller... perhaps a timeline page or chess geneology page. With links of course. Perhaps this would be a good job for Hans or JL Cazaux?
Project Gutenburg, while they concentrate on 'plain vanilla texts', also produces some works that are (or contain) non-textual information. Also, they are no averse to producing HTML products, as long as there is a plain text version available.
<p>FFEN is one option, but we could also use GIF's. Or even plain old ugly ascii diagrams. The book would definitely have to be broken up into chapters, as the full book in one file would be too huge.
<p>I'll send a request to PG to see if they feel the book (Hoc) is public domain.
Sorry about the lack of response. I have unlisted the one existing entry. Hopefully Fergus will publish the submitted entries in the near future.
Thanks for the feedback Tomas. I wouldn't bother trying to play this game -- it is not very playable. A game that's like this one, but more playable is <a href='../diffobjective.dir/interchange.html'>Interchange Chess</a>.
<p>I used left- and right-handed rooks in the game to guarantee it would be quaranteed to end in a certain number of moves. Using such rooks is not strictly necessary though.
<p>You're right about spotting illegal moves -- they're usually discovered 2 or 3 moves down the line. Too annoying. Anyway, this game was more of an exercise in applying an abstract idea to chess than of creating a playable game.
Tony, I've updated them to offer a plain background (as a variant). I must admit, the plain background looks much cleaner. I'll have to think about a new graphic for the shah.
<p>By the way, the elephant and counselor graphics are based on a new font I'm having created. The work is being done by Tom Buhrman (of ItsYourTurn fame). I'll be posting a page soon that shows a preview of this font.
<p>I did the chariot graphic myself! Thanks for the kind words.
Thanks Peter. Although I must admit, I didn't design the elephant graphic. It's part of a new font I'm having designed, so Tom Buhrman gets the credit for that.
Thanks! It's nice to know these older variants are getting looked at. Hopefully they'll spawn some new ideas or inspire new variants.
I have emailed Fergus. Please be patient and we'll see what the situation is in a week or two. Thanks.
'Pawns reaching their 8th rank are promoted to any non-Royal piece that was on the board at the start of the game.' Perhaps the answer is obvious, but I'll ask the question anyways: when a pawn is promoted, is there any limitation on the orientation of the promoted piece? I would assume that the promoted piece can be in any orientation that is legal for that piece (eg. a pawn promoted to a Feeble Rook could not be oriented at 45 degrees), but the rules aren't explicit. Requiring the piece to be oriented 'North' would make safe promotion a bit more difficult, but might be more interesting.
Hmmmm... I never really considered Progressive Feeble Chess. But now that you mention it, it seems as if such a game would work quite well. Perhaps it would even play better than regular progressive chess. In my opinion, progressive chess progresses a bit too quickly, so perhaps *gradual* progressive feeble chess would be more to my liking. Gradual progressive uses a progression that grows more slowly: instead of 1 2 3 4 5... it uses 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5... A bit harder to keep track of, but perhaps it tones down the game a little bit. I'd try it with the Italian progressive rules. A 5x5 version would be possible, although I think it might start getting cramped at that point. Honestly, I chose Los Alamos mostly out of laziness.
Sam, please provide references when you make a claim that our information is incorrect. I will be deleting comments which are offhand, unsupported statements of disagreement. Thanks!
I have finished the Zillions implementation for Weakest Chess. Zillions plays it quite badly (even at 3 minutes per move), so this implementation is probably only good for experimenting or over-the-net play with another human. I think Ralph has (perhaps unintentionally) invented a game that lies in the region between FIDE chess and Go. That is, the game tree for Weakest is less broad but lengthier than chess, but more broad and shallower (I imagine) than Go. It is similar to Go in that many small changes acrete over time to form either winning or losing patterns. As with Go, computers would have a difficult time playing the game well (as Zillions has). It is my suspicion that Go players would like Weakest Chess very much. Chess disc pieces with markers on each side to indicate capturing and non-capturing could be used as an 'over-the-board' way of playing this game. I encourage people to try this game out. I believe it has great potential.
Thanks for the corrections Tony. I've made the appropriate modifications to the English Progressive Chess section.
I have contacted Fergus. He indicates he will resume working on the contest in July sometime. So it should be two weeks from now (at most).
I have been adding board measurements for each game to our indexing database. Do people see a need for an index which cross-references games and pieces? This would enable listing all games which use a particular piece, or listing all pieces used in a particular game.
<p>If so, would the pieces be identified based on their movement or on the name of the piece? We could cross reference piececlopedia items with game items, or simply associate a list of piece names with each game. Keep in mind that building a cross reference would be a significant amount of work.
Quite often we get requests for information about a game that (for instance) is played on a large board and there was a piece called a 'Royal'. Now searching all chessvariant.com pages for the word 'Royal' turns up too many hits. So cross referencing can be useful when looking for games where piece names are commonly used words in other contexts.
<p>Not that I want to do all this work of course, but if there is enough demand for it, perhaps it would be worth it.
I have added more historical and background information in the form of a sidebar.
I have made the appropriate changes. Thanks for the correction.
I'd like to suggest
<a href='http://www.chessvariants.com/small.dir/feeblelosalamos.html'>Feeble Los Alamos Chess</a>.
<p>Also, I'm not against having a large variant per se, but I would like to suggest that if we do have one (or more), we try it out with 'gradual progressive' rules, or perhaps using John William Brown's two-move rule used in
<a href='http://www.chessvariants.com/large.dir/contest/cenchess.html'>Centennial Chess</a>:
<blockquote>
Each player moves two consecutive pieces until capturing. Upon capturing a player loses his two-move privilege for the duration of the game. A capture must be made on the first and only move of a turn.
</blockquote>
<i>I have changed the indexing information to reference the game as Persian instead of Arabic. Thanks for the correction.</i>
<i>FIDE's updated version of their rules does cover this situation. Please refer to the <a href='http://handbook.fide.com/'>FIDE Handbook</a> link. --DH</i>
The next large variant contest will probably happen sometime in 2003 or 2004, sometime after the 84 spaces contest (which hopefully will get off the ground sometime soon).
According to David Pritchard, there is no single set of rules for Indian Chess. I will work on a web page describing the common ruleset.
Ooops! That should have been 3. Expansion set 2 was the Alpha Variant Font preview. I need to do some fixing up. Thanks for pointing it out Peter.
Good point Ben. I will be working on that tonight. I also need to do some slight color correction on some of the 'black' (blue) pieces. Come back around 9pm or so and I should have the .zip ready.
I have been attempting to contact Fergus, but so far I haven't had any response. I will continue trying, so stay tuned.
I have emailed Fergus and did get a reply. Unfortunately, he cannot put much time at all into running the contest or even keeping contestants informed about his plans. So stay tuned, it may be that someone else will be running the contest.
Thanks Derek, it's nice to know my work is appreciated.
I have been attempting to contact Fergus, but it appears as if he is being completely unresponsive. Either that, or he isn't getting my emails. Consequently, we have decided that Hans will run the contest with the rest of the editors helping to publish the submissions.
<p>Anyone who submitted an entry for the contest: <b>please resubmit your entry to our editors email address</b> (which can be found <a href='http://www.chessvariants.com/feedback.html'>here</a>). We will <b>only</b> be accepting entries that were submitted to Fergus by the contest's deadline date.
<p>We apologize for the way this contest was handled and ask your continued patience while we play catch-up and get the contest back on track.
Here's the rule from our FIDE laws page (http://www.chessvariants.com/fidelaws.html): 10.10 The game is drawn, upon a claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for the third time: (a) is about to appear, if he first writes the move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention of making this move; or (b) has just appeared, the same player having the move each time. The position is considered the same if pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and if all the possible moves of all the pieces are the same, including the rights to castle [at some future time] or to capture a pawn 'en passant'.
If this game already exists, I can't find it. Sounds like it would work well as each player would have to balance guarding the enemy king vs. attacking the enemy pieces. I propose we call it Royal Hostage chess. Here's another, similar idea: Royal Hero chess Standard setup. The first player to do any of the following, wins: 1. Checkmate the opposing King, or 2. Make a move that takes his King out of check 3. Bare his opponent's King Kings may move into check. Kings cannot be captured, but may capture.
The .ZIP file had the full paths to the files in it, instead of the paths relative to the zillions of games folder. I've fixed the .zip file so it should now work like the others. If you don't see any difference, try shutting down all your browser windows (the .zip file might be cached).
Thanks for finding the problem. I will be fixing this eventually. In the meanwhile, you can use our newer version of Tamerlan Chess. It's part of the Alfaerie collection. To see the collection click
<a href='http://www.chessvariants.com/index/displayitem.php?itemurl=graphics.dir/alfaerie.zip'>here</a>.
I have implemented a very crude membership system for chessvariants.com. You can now become a member of this site. I have also changed the commenting system to be able to utilize member information. Stay tuned as we continue to develop this capability and add member functions to various areas of the site. Feedback is welcome and keep in mind -- this is a work in progress...
When creating a comment, if you are a member, you may specify your user id. After previewing your comment you will enter your password. This will, in effect, allow people to create *verified* comments (ie. the name associated with the comment really is the person that the name indicates). In the near future, I will be adding the capability of allowing people to edit their own (verified) comments.
I can have it display your full name. But if you hover your mouse pointer over the smiley face, it will give your name.
Verified comments now display full name instead of user id. I have also added editing capability so that verified comments can be edited even after they are posted..
You all make very good points. But I should point out that Gothic Chess also uses Chancellor. Perhaps we should indicate that the preferred name is Marshal(l), but Chancellor is also commonly used. Another point: should we have reserved names for certain pieces? Should we try to enforce the use of the names 'Marshal(l)' and 'Chancellor' exclusively for the Knight-Rook?
Proposal: Establish a Chess Variants Standards and Guidelines Committee Purpose: To publish guidelines and standards relating to the development and playing of chess variations. Guidelines would be used by the chess variant community to help reduce confusion and inconsitency. Enforcement of such guidelines would be voluntary. Membership: Obvious choices would be: Hans Bodlaender, David Pritchard, Ralph Betza (just to keep things interesting), John William Brown, Fergus Duniho, Glenn Overby, Michael Howe, Peter Aronson. Membership would be non-paying. Hosting: The Chess Variant Pages would host the committee and act as a public forum for committee deliberations and for posting of any committee publications. Positions: President: Responsible for choosing which issues get decided when Secretary: Responsible for writing and posting committee publications Treasurer: Unnecessary?
That would be up to the committee. :) Seriously -- the committee might publish standards and guidelines regarding the naming of certain common pieces or variants. Consider how we currently reference 'Chess': FIDE Chess, International Chess, Western Chess, Usual Chess... It would be nice to settle on an accepted standard. Coming up with standards and guidelines wouldn't force anyone to use them, but we as editors might make use of them when editing documents for publication. I'm not trying to stifle creativity, but merely avoid some confusion and inconsistencies. All the discussion over Marshal(l) vs. Chancelor got me thinking about how issues like that could be resolved. Hence my suggestion. I won't be surprised if nothing comes of it however.
We will be starting a
<a href='http://www.chessvariants.com/index/displaypolls.php'>poll</a>
to determine the next recognized variant. To vote in the poll, you must be a member of chessvariants.com. Please follow the link below to review which variants have been nominated. If you wish to nominate a variant for a future poll, please send the name of the variant and your reasons for nominating it to the editors.
<p><a href='http://www.chessvariants.com/index/displaypollstatus.php?pollid=2'>Poll for Next Recognized Variant</a>
All this discussion is great, but in the end, someone is going to have to make a decision. For a decision to be made that will be generally accepted by the CV community will require the decision be made by at least some of the current leading figures in the CV field (eg. David Pritchard, Ralph Betza, John William Brown, etc...). This is why I suggested a standards group be formed. The standards produced would be used mainly for describing, studying and analyzing the chess variant field, and not for trying to force their use by chess variant designers.
<p>By the way, John William Brown has attempted some of this type of work in his book Meta-Chess.
In the case of a tie, the entry that received the most votes from the editors will be selected. If there is a still a tie, then the entry that received the most votes from the chief editors will be selected. If there is still a tie, then both/all of the tied entries will be selected.
The poll is now closed. Since there was a 3-way tie between Tamerlane Chess, Crazyhouse, and Marseillais Chess, the voting of the site editors must be counted and is as follows: Tamerlane Chess: 3 editor votes Crazyhouse: 2 editor votes Marseillais Chess: 3 editor votes Since this results in a tie between Tamerlane Chess and Marseillais Chess, the voting of the site's chief editors must be counted and is as follows: Tamerlane Chess: 1 chief editor votes Marseillais Chess: 2 chief editor votes Marseillais Chess is the next recognized variant. The next poll will be between Tamerlane Chess, Crazyhouse and Hostage Chess.
Fixed. It was listing as Baroque/Ultima instead of just Ultima. Thanks for pointing out the problem.
Doublechess will also appear in the next RV poll: 'Doublechess is one of the most popular CVs which can be played on Richard's Play By Email server. No other CV inventor has done more to supply sample games of his invention to your site than I have. I have been running Doublechess tournaments on Richard's PBM server almost since the day it was added. Take a look at the current published Doublechess Standings to see how many people have played it and how often they have played it. Doublechess' beauty lies in its simplicity. It contains no special pieces. Lay two standard chess boards side by side to create a 16 by 8 board. Use two chess sets and replace the second set of kings with a third set of queens. Lay the first army in the center and the second army out in the wings. Doublechess games are rich with tactics and have the 'feel' of orthodox chess.' -- David Short.
I have added DoubleChess to the poll because: 1. Lack of variants being nominated, 2. The inventor gave evidence that the game is being widely played, and 3. We now have a good way to ensure a fair vote. So, in essence, I have 'nominated' the game by placing it in the poll. If you still have objections, we can take it up in the CVP Editors group.
Extinction Chess is already a Recognized Variant, so I will not be including it in the poll. Drop Chess, while being a widely known variant, has been improved upon (IMHO) by Hostage Chess. Since the variants are so similar, my thought is to stick with Hostage Chess. Alice Chess is a good suggestion and I will add it to the poll. And I think 5 entries for the poll is a good number, so I will still accept nominations, but they will be held over for the next poll after this one.
Here are the results of the poll: Variant Votes Percentage Tamerlane Chess 8 35% Crazyhouse 3 13% Hostage Chess 4 17% DoubleChess 1 4% Alice Chess 7 30% Total voters: 23 Next poll will include Alice, Crazyhouse and Hostage Chess. Other nominations will be accepted. I plan to start the next poll on August 1, 2003.
The (under review) guy was just some text to indicate that the comment was under review. I have since removed this text so it will just show up blank until the comment is reviewed. Stay tuned -- I'll probably be making small changes here and there as people get comfortable with the semi-moderated system.
Tony, your move 31... k b3-a2-A2 was illegal. It violates the rule: 'A move must be legal on the board where it is played'. The move was illegal because the king moved into check (even though after the move the king was transferred to a safe square on the other board).
Just a test to make sure commenting on presets works, but also, I really do give this an excellent... :)
Thank you Lee, I have made the correction. Thanks for catching the error.
They'll get their prizes when I get off my lazy rear end and send them out! :)
I dropped the ball on that one. We have $25 from the entrance fees, and I'll pony up another $75. That makes $100 in prize money. Mike Howe, the 1st place winner will receive $70, John Lawson, the second place winner will receive $30. Both will receive award certificates. I apologize for dropping the ball on this. Hopefully my lack of action on this issue won't discourage others from joining in on other tournaments.
It's interesting to note that the Swapper is critical in this game -- without it, a player could form a perfect defensive position (using only 3 pawns, 1 immobilizer, 1 shield, 1 queen, and of course a king).
<p>Anyone care to take a stab at what one of the perfect defensive positions would look like? My solution is posted in this comment, but you'll have to 'view source' to see it.
<!--
<pre>
| . . . .
| p k i .
| . s p .
| . q p .
+--------
</pre>
-->
You're right Mike, I forgot to take into account the triple repetition rule. :( But other than that, it is (as far as I can see) a perfect defense, even against a stronger force. I can see the wisdom of having the triple repetition be a loss instead of a draw. Well, anyway, I really do like this game -- the limited archer which requires a spotter works really well and the pieces in general interact well with each other. I especially like that the immobilizer has been weakened by having more pieces which are effective against it.
We haved changed our web hosting service and decided it would be better to be able to run in parallel while the transition was taking place. Also -- we're not abandoning our .com address. We'll be setting that to use our new site in the near future also.
Sorry about that -- I'll create an article page on Double-bent Riders instead.
Hi Paul, I would think the book is fairly valuable. I would be willing to pay on the order of $200 for it, but you may be able to get much more than that depending on the book's condition.
Thank you for the information -- I have updated the page. When Zillions of Games changed their web site to use a database our links to pages on their site became invalid. We are working to update all our links, but it's a time-consuming job.
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Fergus, I did not send out the prize money (on Roberto's request). It is being held in trust for application as Roberto has specified.
To register by postal mail, please make the check out to David Howe, and mail it to our postal address, which is listed on our <a href='../feedback.html'>contact</a> page.
That was part of the problem, but apparently not all of it. I cleaned out the crazy HTML code, but still, the text in the table is coming out larger than the rest of the text. I'm not sure why, but at least you can see all of the text now.
Fergus -- I've modifed the commenting system so that comments made on hidden or deleted items will not show up at all.
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