Comments by catugo
Hello again!...
I have started 3 presets meant for the next games in my apothecary series (named Grand Apothecary 1,2&3). I need approval from the editorial staff. Now they are empty, but for such large games I need a bit of testing before more serious thoughts.
So if anyone in the editorial staff can do the necessary things, as now I get the message: "This page is currently hidden pending review by the Chess Variant Pages editorial staff. It will not show up on the What's New page, nor any of the index pages until reviewed by a member of the Chess Variant Pages editorial staff." I would be very grateful!
Which error you were talking about guys?!...
Hello Fergus,
In the preset for Gross chess this line of code appears:
elseif and not fnmatch "*;*" thismove == P space #to:
It appears in the pawn promotion subroutine. Could you explain in a few words what it does, as I can't get my head arround it?
Thanks!
I'm not sure if anyone helped, but things seem ok now. I am sorry for any false alarm. Have fun everybody!
I'm not sure if anyone helped, but things seem ok now. I am sorry for any false alarm. Have fun everybody!
I could have made a dangerous bug (infinite loop) while working for my apthecary 2 preset.
I say dangerous as I can't acces the file anymore but it could be pilling up stuff.
The apothecary preset is not that well either.
What happned.
I copy pasted the "P" code (as presented in the how to enforce rules material) in order to obtain a p code for the black pieced, but I copy pasted them probably in a loop.
Hopefully nothing dangerous has happened, but I'm still reporting it!...
I found something that Fergus has written here:
https://www.chessvariants.com/play/pbm/movement.html
No worry, then!...
Which logical coordinates examples should I use in order to understand how to program griffin and aanca?
For now I'm not cpapable to do them!
Thanks. That must be it then!... Pardon my confusion!...
I see that only in one case. I assume the rest of challenges are of the N/A kind!...
As I don't seem to find the answer myself: Is there a way to know before accepting a challenge what time requirements the game will have?
Actually I think HG's idea to associate images with common pieces to be very useful, even the siege elephant as it will appear in the new version of apothecary games that is in beta FAH, i'd need to make small adjustments to existing pieces!
Thanks for the info!... I hope your health improves!...
Intresting, I remember once thinking about an elliptical target for curling!...
What about the continuation of the tournament? Are there any other games going on?
Nice idea!... Is there anyone interested for a personal challenge?
So this is supposed to be a rhino-mirror rhino alternating?
I see! I did not thought it should be 1 word :(!
I am not sure how to find the game exclusivelly to this tournament in game courier. Any suggestions?
@wdtr2
Can pawns promote to anything when they do promote?
Also, my name if Florea!...
I remember this happenning to me, too!
I wanted to get to it but I still have not been able to take the time!... :(
I see your point about priorities HG. I was not picking on you. Good job. I was only pointing it out!
In the link you had posed, 2d was not kanji. And even if it were, I'd at least be able to memorise pieces easier.
To me the trouble is that the 2d display is more feasable. The 3d one consumes a lot of resources.
Also I don't reconnize all the required kanji!
Same in chu shogi!...
Hope I don't trouble you too much HG!...
In 2D mode most pictures are not shown properly, but I'm not sure you've got there!...
While watching a cpu vs cpu game of eurasian I had noticed that vaos do not seem to care either about color binding as in the early game color binding is compensated by the other pieces and in the late game lack of platforms probably damages them more.
@HG,
Also there is another effect that amplifies pairing bonus or color bonding penalty. The effect of the pair being able to block the king from part of the board. That the same way rooks do on their own. Bishops do that. Two dababahriders to that, and they only cover half the board among themselves anyway. Wizards or fads do not.
Also the case of bede and WAD on different shades who work a bit akwardly but do work together fine. Probably stronger than a charging rook+fibnif or waffle+short rook. Many pawns would help a lot the CC pair. But ChessV for example know such tricks. I did whached some games.
@HG,
But the issue of an game with different armies where one player has more color bound pairs of pieces is an rather difficult one. The more color bound side has stronger pieces (in order to compensate for the color binding). The issues you mentioned are also strongly related to the fact the the playing algorithm does not understand it. If it does then it will play differently. But the problem is not gone away this way either as the game is now reduced to if early mid game tactics work for the color bound side. And from a game design point of view frankly this is not much. It lacks complexity.
I'm wondering if the more color bound army has weaker values in the color bound pieces than it's counterparts in the other army, and then it compensates through the rest of the army it can work better. Or is the color bound army, just has more pieces be them individually weaker. Even if this is contrary to Betza's game. This last case also has problems though in the realm of the army with more pieces needing more time for coordination.
So the issue you raise is not that simple in it's depths! And quite likely something that people on the musketeer chess website have not fully considered!
@HG
Your analysys is much deeper (although treating only a nieche of the problem) than any of those made by the guys from musketeer chess!...
@Ilya Novikov
The queen is already a strong piece to be droped anywhere on the board, but it still has the disadvantage of not being anything special in close combat so it does not have that much king capturing potential when the king is still well defended by friendly pieces.
The lyon on the other is a monster on close fights. It sniper oppopens who cannot defend themseles (like silvers from lateral positions) and can also kill 2 which can come in quite handy in tsume situations.
In chu shogi the lyon has plenty of midgame oponent as the DK and DH are not vulnerable to it.
Also the castle is strong from the start by also having blind tigers and frankly just plenty of pieces around it. But a droped lyon seems to me still an unstopable force. Assuming regular king move of course.
That being said I'm contemplating twice moving silvers or twice moving golds as an promotion option in a future variant.
Also you had mentioned in the description of the phoenix that the knight cannot be blocked by other pieces. I think you mean the phoenix. Same with kirin!
There is a conglict between the board reprezentation in the picture and the boaard reprezentation in the description of the opening position. For example it is written that the side mover and vertical mover are on the third rank on d3 and h3 but they are actually on 8c and 4 c.
The main rule of game articles on this website is that rules need not cause confusion. This is important!
@HG
I had sugested, for one of his variants, the name platinum general for the drunk elephant. To me that seems more interesting. But that's a bit off topic!...
A good name for the narrow knight could be searched in the realm of light cavalry, maybe. Lancer or hussar could be interesting options. Donkey is a fun option also for the not this "not that horse" piece, but maybe this is not that appropriate.
Does anyone now if there still is a world federation of modern chess?
I played some musketeer chess games, and I'm still playing one against Erik. I always was uncomfortable with the board crowding and I think I figured out why. Most of the added pieces fork to easily and that is painfully and frankly bad design. To be honest there is not much to be added on an 8x8 as far as I can see as the classic pieces of tamerlane and shatraj are many time to weak and uninteresting and the others, like in musketeer are game breaking. CWDA has a different approach and there are definitely cool ideas using orthodox material. But otherwise the orthodox game is kinda the best!...
As, from what I remember, the article says considering all possible games is meaningless. So what people usually do is get statistics for the average branching factor and the length of the game. With a program like chessV you can do this. Take grand chess for example. Run 1000 games in decent conditions. Say 4mins +3 secs time. Read the data. You probably need help here but I think it can be set up. Same with Omega chess or Shako (one of your favorites I remeber) for a few more known games.
It seems to me though that you aim for the more theoretical rather than applied part of math. There might be relevant conclusions to be drawn from things like number of captures and so on as long as games are chesslike enough.
For some games like go or havannah the game lenght is quite obvios based just on board size.
When the time I'll maybe try to deduce some such heuristics on games, I'll try on Apothecary as the final article on them is pending on my to do list along with chessV2 expeiments which I hope to be able to do soon!...
@HG
Bug found!
I was adding a bishop ray twice!... Shame on me for not noticing!...
I guess this is how people sometimes find "faster than light" objects.
Yes, I rethought it and it's probably a programming error!...
I have written a small c++ program that calculates the crowded board mobility (betza style : https://www.chessvariants.com/d.betza/pieceval/betterway.html).
For a future variant I have studied what I'd prefer for now to call 2-picket bishop and 2-picket rook. Meaning a bishop that moves at least three squares (has 2 long mandatory blind slides before) and a rook that does the same.
It seems that the 2-picket bishop is slightly stronger than a than a 2-picket rook 12x12 and I think I figured out why, but first I'm curious on other opinions. The results averaged over the board having between 10 and 84 pieces (so 75 different cases) are
2pb mobility: 4.52381
2pr mobility: 4.22735
Sure there is still the issue of colour boundness but for compund pieces it is quite an interesting observation, I think!...
This link with different armies opposing the black orthodox army from the musketeer chess website could be of interest. To me it seems that much effort has not been put in the balancing of the 2 armies.
http://musketeerchess.net/games/castellum/rules/rules.php
http://musketeerchess.net/games/castellum/rules/rules-marsu.php
http://musketeerchess.net/games/castellum/rules/rules-jumpers.php
I know in Tamerlane chess the picket piece is a bishop that cannot move just one step but must cross the first step. What is the rook's counterpart for this piece? What about longer "blind" steps? I remember Ralph Betza naming a piece anti-rook. But I think it was different, although I don't recall the details!...
@HG
Remember your point for an upcomming game of mine!...
@Kelvin that thought has crossed my mind too. But it had been any camelrider move after the knight move. Works with zebras, too I guess.
I have completed all my round 1-3 games. How are the standings and who still plays?
I see 12 moves and only 5 cards. How are moves distributed on each card ?
Hi Fergus,
A few days ago this on this post : https://www.chessvariants.com/index/listcomments.php?itemid=0000000100000000&order=DESC I've made a few days ago the title has been misteriously lost :)! Any idea why? When others have answered things seemed to have happened here:
https://www.chessvariants.com/index/listcomments.php?itemid=19990302b57b7f27&order=DESC
Trouble is that things got disconencted and they have to not be :)!
First I'm not sure why my original title for the subject has not held.
Anyway Jeffrey thanks a lot for discussing it.
Yes, I mean a new game indeed with more formal time controls (which we can establish), but the crux of the matter was to design a game with that in mind along with other features which should define nextchess. The disadvantages of "classic" bughouse is exactly what has got me into this. But the concept of a 2vs2 seems intriguing to me. It is just poorly executed here.
Ladybug is the name of a supposed to be a variant, or more likelly a class of variants, as I think new bughouse should be (it's just my taste though), but more female friendly (hence the "lady" part)
. I think ladybug is a small insect.
Because it is a difficult task I decided it's better to make it a team effort. Ex-president Kenedy was not there for no reason either.
Short story I strongly believe that the computer almost AI era needs a reformation in what we call chess.
Hello all you guys and hopefully gals.
A few weeks ago (February the 9th) I had encountered on the Facebook group here : https://www.facebook.com/groups/AbstractNationX/ the question if " Is there any dedicated team vs team abstract games? ".
Bughouse was given as example and a question has been risen whether bughouse and it's solitary counterpart crazyhouse. It has been argued that bughouse was designed to be a 2-player/team (4 players in total) game. I disagree. Bughouse is just regular chess shoved into two board with a shogi-like reuse rule!..
But we chess player do tend to get a weird/nerd/geek stamp in a "anti-good" way. And I wondered could I do it. Could I design such a game? Maybe aI could have had. But even most importantly many things needing improving in chess have crossed my mind.
Among them especially important is that chess and it's many variants are not female friendly designed. So that would be a second task.
But then I got so many ideas and then got blocked. It was clear. I can't do it on my own.
The discussion about nextchess is a very old, initial and dear to most on this website. So let's think about it together while crushing the quite unfair believe (ok, maybe a little fair) that chess players are not people persons. So together why not identify what next chess would require and design I propose a few nextchess variants together.
And by know ad-hoc skeptics would complain that it has been tried before: yara,yara,yara.
To that I leave you tto the explanations of someone who does it much better than I :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th5A6ZQ28pE
After this above link is well comprehended let me establish some initial ground rules.
1. Principles need to be established which will guide future conversation without having necessarily any obligatory ones nor the list should ever be closed.
2. The purpose of this post is to design a bughouse game (pair game) for 2 pairs that will benefit from designed goals aligned with this objective.
3. The second purpose (but as primary in importance) is to create a another such game with female friendly concepts in mind. I think a nice name for it would be ladybug.
4. The principles enumerated by Fergus in the link bellow are generally to be considered.
https://www.chessvariants.com/opinions.dir/fergus/design.html
5. Down bellow I will name a few high council member (like in the klingon empire- I know you know what I'm talking about) but most important try to bring into the fold as many people as they think this will matter.
For starters I name to consider all this active members with a lot of lately contributions and quite interesting and different ideas : Fergus Duniho, Greg Strong, HG Muller, Vitya Makov, Kevin Pacey. I could have missed others though so please, everybody.
6. The ladybug game should be considered to be played on one larger board where partners could see eye to eye as opposite to stay shoulder by shoulder. It is proven that evolutionary speaking women communicate better this way where men communicate better in the later.
7. In order for that to work I propose for consideration that each member of a team should have it own color (although some pieces could change color adding a second way of giving - this time your own- pieces to your opponent). The inspiration for this was the game dada : https://www.chessvariants.com/rules/dada
8. stones like in 8 stones chess are an interesting addition. They would also provide interesting tactics and yet another way of giving pieces to your partner.https://www.chessvariants.com/large.dir/contest/eightstones.html
9. I engage to update the list from time to time as the discussion progresses
10. Most importantly Try to bring lady friends into this. We won't be able to properly do 3. otherwise
I would also prefer more alike games. Like with slightly different pieces (like I had done in my 2 apothecary games). For now this is it. I'm waiting for your feedback :)!
And in closing may I add two examples of game principles for orientative puropses as the above ones are rather general (7. & 8. are also game principles). Ex1. There should be a balance between leapers and riders. Ex2. Pieces that are blockable short range but have long range like the picket and giraffe from tamerlane chess are to be considered.
It does for 9 or 10 players.
ANd by the way, Fergus is correct. Sunday is march 3 :)!
It seems to me that the shedule is a round robin. Am I correct?
Is anyone else finding weird similarities between Chaturanga (Davidson's variantion) and Makruk?
Is anyone else finding weird similarities between Chaturanga (Davidson's variantion) and Makruk?
@Greg
I have edited my previous comment with the needed information.
Good luck!
Thanks Greg,
For me:
Courier Chess Moderno 2;
Metamachy 4;
Symetric Chess 3;
Collosus 2;
Hectochess: 3;
Falcon Chess 4;
Gross chess 4;
Odin's rune chess 1;
Grand Shatranj D 2;
Janus Kamil Chess 3;
Maorider Chess 4;
Elven Chess 3;
Decima 4;
Sac Chess 1;
Unicorn Great Chess 3;
Heroes Hexagonal chess 1;
Tess Chess 1;
Opulent chess 4;
Shako Balbo 4;
Why not? The back rank pieces are neat.
But your games do give me a feeling of more of the same.
About the tournament containing my game I'd like to retreat it for now as I had anyway improved the rules and not completed the new preset. Is that fine guys?
As a temporary solution for users facing this problem would be to just use multiple tabs. This way the inconvenience is out and least until an opponet makes a move :)!
The difference to to start from the way you enter the exact same link.
If I click my games on game courier I always find both active and challenges.
When I click confirm on a move during a game a window apears where I need to press "your logs" to come back to the same window as described above.
It seems to me that the conumdrum is in the way the userid gets paseed out of the difference you have pointed out Fergus :)!
It looks like I'm logged in and logged out but it is not the case as I'm always loged in :)!
Here are the 2 cases. Why?
https://www.chessvariants.com/play/pbm/logs.php?stat=ongoing&age=7776000&sort=priority&userid=catugo
https://www.chessvariants.com/play/pbm/logs.php?stat=ongoing&age=7776000&sort=priority&userid={$userid}
@Fergus
Hello!
There seems to be a bug which is a mild incovinience.
It seems to me that when clicking in the menu "Your games on game courier" you recieve the game finder of active and invitations. Each second time I see only invitations. It would be so cool if you took a look.
Thanks!
@Greg,
As you had assumed I'm still in.
I think presets that are rules enforcing and move displaying should be mandatory mostly because otherwise how you would notice errors made by both players? There are other issues easier to spot. But these would fall on you as organizers and who else would like to help as an serious tournament should first and foremost be fair. Also I'd help with such error detection tasks but isn't that a conflict of interest?
It's ok, not your fault Greg. I would have liked it though :)!
And Kevin, one more thing about cyborg chess. I'm not sure how you would guarantee equal hardware usage. I guess you can make it a rule that everybody uses the same engine which is distributed very shortly before the competition starts so it won't be hacked. And it is also checked to be ok after each round. But this at first glance at least has the downside that everybody must use the same engine. I believe I can get around this but it's complicated to explain :)!
@Kevin
I had played Arimaa. There is not anti-cheating policy besides just saying don't do it :)!
As far as I know until now it worked :)!
For cyborg games the goal should be that the human players should make the final decision based on huge amounts of properly presented raw data.
The human part of the cyborg skills are not the same as sole human skills so I'm not sure if not establishing and elite in that setting plays any major part.
Today chess computing heads more and more towards machine learning.
@Fergus,
The knights are fine. It is just how these games work.
I'm not sure what could be wrong with the griffin and aanca code. I think I had just copy pasted what you had written a while ago. And we had talked about this before. But there could be the biggest trouble. Maybe tomorrow I'll take a look :)!
An important thing would be to have only enforcing displaying presets.
@Greg
Would you agree the inclusion of the upgraded apothecary 1&2 into this years tournament provided that I can do (with Fergus's help) the rules enforcement and move displays in time?
@Fergus
Hello
This preset: https://www.chessvariants.com/play/pbm/play.php?game=Apothecary+Chess+1&settings=Apothecary1working
still has errors as we had discussed before (an infinite cycle).
This one is virtually the same but lack the erros of the first one.
https://www.chessvariants.com/play/pbm/play.php?game=Apothecary+Chess+2&settings=Apothecary2working
They seem to similar to me and still apothecary 1 has errors. Could you please check? Maybe it is a problem with the system. Could you help? Thanks!...
I agree with your points Kevin.
But human online competitions are virtually impossible to be held online and still be engine free.
For the online media cyborg chess is the best option.
And human tournaments are expensive.
Anyway here is a list of my preferred games: Grand Chess, Omega Chess, Shako, Eurasian Chess, Gross Chess, 8 stones chess, CWDA. Say we organize these in the same location. Worldwide there are always high travel costs. But besides that. If you organize the tournaments more or less separately in order to avoid fixture clashes as much as possible, you will have a huge schedule on your hands. Very unfeasible most likely. Fergus once proposed to hold each round with a different game. I don't think that is that fair either as some games are more drawish than others, for example. Moreover if we are talking about a swiss system then the games that are first are less important. And you won't get enough world championships to make enough permutations to make it at lest long term fair.
As of now (20th of January 2019) I don't see clear solutions to these problems.
Guys?
I'd play but I was thinking about choosing just a few games and have 3-4 separate tournaments of some of those games. Not that my way is better :(!
We should consider a formula 1 like competition using computers, and maybe desing games with that in mind. This is what apothecary series is about but I cannot obviosly claim that I know better :)!
I'm not sure if the comunity is large enough to warrant such a competition. Nor the audience. Maybe we should stick to organizing tournaments here :)!
This looks like omega chess besides it's 10x10 board :)!
@wdtr2 Thanks for mentionning me. It would help to also include why, but maybe that's not crucial :)! Have fun!
@HG
By the way in the definition of the default file as it is downloaded you are trying to define an U (probably an unicorn or nightrider) but you are just putting down another knight. An extra "s" is required maybe. That is for future not carefull users. Also for the V and S pieces you defined an camel zebra compound twice. No ideea what is all that about :)!
Thanks!
The actual thing I'd like to use if for is to test the 5 man endgames for my 2 apothecaries games.
That is beyound the scope of the program as the 2 apothecary games are 10x10 and even worse it uses the joker (fool, imitator) which is not being defined in FairyGen.
But there seems to be enough information for me to build the program myself for a more general purpose. The main dificulty is probably the board representation as an 64 structure bits is not usefull any more. The joker implementation should be more staightforward but there maybe have to be some recurrence there too. I still have not though about it :)!
@HG
What I had found is something else!
So back to square one! Silly me!
@HG!
I had found it by google, in the end, here:
http://home.hccnet.nl/h.g.muller/EGTB.html
So I guess that settles it.
Thanks, HG!
HG,
Hello!
Earlier on this post you had mentioned Fairy Gen.
I have a few questions:
1. Where can I find it?
2. Is it yours? Who has authored it?
3. Is it open source? Can I see the code?
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Yes, Greg I am trying to make a preset, acually 3, but that is besides the point. Indeed though I have used the same menu, the one displayed under my own name with the option "post your own game", and I had chosen "Create a preset" in a dropbox!...