[ Help | Earliest Comments | Latest Comments ][ List All Subjects of Discussion | Create New Subject of Discussion ][ List Latest Comments Only For Pages | Games | Rated Pages | Rated Games | Subjects of Discussion ]Comments/Ratings for a Single Item Later ⇩Reverse Order⇧ Earlier Quinquereme Chess. Large variant with a new piece, the Quinquereme. (12x12, Cells: 144) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]H. G. Muller wrote on 2021-05-21 UTCAh yes, you are right, I mixed it up. It were all the other Nightriders that needed to distinguish left and right turns; the Quintessence has both. In Nachtmahr I got that right. I fixed it now. BTW, these 'wide' pieces with their very long, folded trajectories gave me crazy idea: what if there was a piece with a trajectory that would cover the entire board? E.g. sliding along a path that wrapped around it like a spiral: 24 9 10 11 12 23 8 1 2 13 22 7 X 3 14 21 6 5 4 15 20 19 18 17 16 To keep it somewhat symmetric it could also wrap anti-clockwise. Jörg Knappen wrote on 2021-05-21 UTCThanks for featuring Quinquereme Chess with an interactive diagram! Unfortunately, there is a glitch in the implementation of the Quintessence and its compounds, it is lacking the lateral development like f5 - d6 - c4 - a5 or f5 - g7 - e8 - f10 I guess, the initial "hq" is too much and suppresses some moves. The Quintessence in Nachmahr without the initial two letters "hq" works fine. H. G. Muller wrote on 2021-05-21 UTCThere is one small imperfection in the diagram's implemenation of Quinquereme Chess: It allows the King jumps to the back rank also when in check. Perhaps I should make it a general property of the diagram that initial moves on a royal piece are not allowed when in check. satellite=quinque files=12 ranks=12 graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG35/ promoZone=4 maxPromote=1 squareSize=35 graphicsType=png darkShade=#CCCC11 lightShade=#339933 rimColor=#111199 coordColor=#CCCC11 borders=0 firstRank=1 useMarkers=1 promoChoice=!P,P'1,C3,Z,N3,B3,R2,Q1,J2,Q'2,L1 pawn::fmWfceFifmnDifmnH::a3-l3 zebra::::a1,l1 camel::::a2,l2 knight:N:::d2,i2 bishop::::e2,h2 rook::::b2,k2 quintessence:Q':(az)6N:nightrider:c1,j1 janus::BN:cardinal:c2,j2 queen::::f2 leelo::R(az)6N:chancellor:e1,h1 pentere:P':Q(az)6N:amazon:g1 king::KibsNibsCibsFXibsNXibsCX::g2 Quinquereme Chess Kevin Pacey wrote on 2017-08-15 UTCFor what it's worth, I've looked at the logs of finished games of this variant (just 2), as well as such logs of Alekhine Chess and my own Sac Chess, as these are two large board variants I've known that have lots in the way of powerful pieces in the setup provided by the inventor. It may be arguable, but I consider the number of moves played in an average game of a given variant to ideally be about 40 moves (what it is for the ever-popular standard [FIDE] chess) before most players would seriously consider ending the game (i.e. not play it out to checkmate or a draw by regulation rather than agreement, in the case of chess at least). In the case of Alekhine Chess there's 8 finished games so far, and only two have gone past move 30; I suspect that the board having only 8 ranks (in spite of 14 columns) leads to more speedy finishes as a rule, given that there are also many powerful pieces in the setup. There's about twice as many games of Sac Chess finished thus far, with most lasting 30-70 moves before resignation or checkmate. Sac Chess is 10x10, with less squares in total, but even more in the way of powerful pieces in its setup (e.g. 2 Amazons per side, rather than 1) than in Alekhine Chess. Not enough finished games of either variant to be totally convincing, but note at least some of the games had fairly evenly matched and/or relatively high rated Game Courier opponents. It's even less convincing evidence in the case of Quinquereme Chess (12x12 variant, with plenty of room for powerful pieces in the setup, it seems, when recalling the previous paragraph), with just two finished games of it so far, but note each of these at least had a nice number of moves played, in total, compared to the average length of a game in chess. I suspect based on all the above that at least one very powerful piece could be added, rather than subtracted from, this variant and still not seriously hurt its as yet far from proven playability, or the possible nice length of an average game of it. Nicolino Will wrote on 2017-08-14 UTCI think you should make the part where there is Leeloo, space Pentere, Leeloo become space, Leeloo, Pentere, space. The Leeloo is clearly stronger than a Chancellor (Rook + Knight), and a Chancellor (Rook + Knight) is about as strong as a Queen. Therefore, the Leeloo is stronger than a Queen, so there should just be 1. Jörg Knappen wrote on 2010-02-04 UTCUnfortunately there are comments which I cannot even enjoy together with an 'excellent' rating. Quinquereme Chess should be judged for itself and not as a means to say something bad about another chess variant with very different design goals. George Duke wrote on 2009-12-12 UTCThe link at bottom shows origin of Knappen's Quintessence. Since there was recent talk about Amazon, Amazon, Amazon, I had in my notes at the cafe this morning to regard Pentere. This Pentere is stronger than Amazon! Queen plus Quintessence has all the Amazon moves plus continuation of that one form of NightRider from Knappen's article. Last week I was already thinking of the piece-types stronger than Amazon, such as Conway's Angel. /Nachtmahr> George Duke wrote on 2009-12-12 UTCExcellent ★★★★★That is a tolerable self-assessment about Gross, Fergus. I do not like it because as in most Duniho's there is nothing new, no novel piece-type nor rules mechanism. Uncreative. However, the modus operandi often works, purely new combinations of existing elements, such as in throwing all the neat stuff into Eurasian Chess. Presto, something pretty good, once in a while the whole being greater than the parts by, hey, what, synergy, synergistic. Here is a 12x12 that has really unique piece carried over from the same Knappen's Quintessential, based on new piece-type Quintesssence. Pentere is more powerful compound of Quintessence. Does it compare in value to Amazon? No, it's stronger. The rating upgrades from before. There are about 40 or 50 ''Gross'' (=144-squares) CVs here within our website. George Duke wrote on 2008-07-16 UTC''The further the Pawns advance, the more and stronger their promotion choices become.'' Ninth--Zebra. Tenth--Zebra, Camel, Knight, Bishop. Eleventh--all of above, Rook, Quintessence, or Janus. Twelfth--all of foregoing, or Quinquereme(Pentere). Quinquereme is Queen + Quintessence. Pentere is stronger piece than Amazon(RNB) of course because of reaching all that one's and then some -- actually reasonable enough for so large as 144 squares. David Paulowich wrote on 2007-05-10 UTC'My question is rather specific, in the duodecimal variant I am just designing there are standard knights and bishops, and I want the endgame of king & knight & bishop vs lone king to be a win.' - Jörg Knappen, regarding the 50 moves rule. Sorry to be so late! Your 12x12 board requires at least a 100 moves rule, as the length of a forced checkmate (or other victory) seems to increase in proportion to the number of squares on the board. Here are some known facts on the 8x8 board. K+B+B can take 19 moves to mate. K+B+N can take 33 moves to mate. K+Q versus K+B+B can take as long as 71 moves to force the first capture. K+R+R versus K+Q only takes 15 moves (30 ply) to force the capture of the Queen, but it takes much longer if the defender has a [C]hancellor (Rook + Knight) or a [U]nicorn (Bishop + Nightrider). * Fairy endgames with 3 pieces' * Dave McCooey * ------------------------------------------------------------------ ||||| Longest Wins for the Strong Side (WHITE) ||||| ------------------------------------------------------------------ Three Number Type Side Piece Half Of Of To Endgame MovesPositions Win Example Position Move ------- ----- ------- ------- ---------------------------------- ----- KRRvKQ 30 14 f-captr WK(c8) WR(h2) WR(g8) BK(a1) BQ(d1) WHITE KRRvKU 202 4 capture WK(b8) WR(d5) WR(h8) BK(d7) BU(e1) BLACK KRRvKC 87 9 capture WK(d6) WR(a6) WR(a7) BK(g6) BC(d3) WHITE KQvKBB(xdd) 142 74 capture WK(b8) WQ(a8) BK(e5) BB(e6) BB(f8) BLACK Andy Maxson wrote on 2007-02-16 UTCExcellent ★★★★★This game looks really cool! The only thing cooler would be adding squirrels behind rooks and adding quang trung rooks and shifting the setup one rank forwards so there would still be redeployment space. The squirrels would add more leaping power and the quang trung rooks which capture by leaping over a piece as in checkers but quang trung rooks can only capture one piece in a move. The quang trung rooks could ignore defended pieces and would make the game more interesting. The quang trung rooks would be below zebras. There could also be renn cavaliers below quintesences but that would be wishful thinking Larry Wheeler wrote on 2007-02-09 UTCJeremy, from reading the rules I would say the unprotected pawns were an oversight (he claims that all pawns are protected). The problem with this is that it limits Black's replies, so that the moves played to counter the attacks on the unprotected pawns limit the variety of openings available. Jeremy Good wrote on 2007-01-21 UTCExcellent ★★★★★Knappen is one of the best variant designers, and his work is a huge inspiration to me. Kudos for an ingenious game with an intriguing type of nightrider that moves as a camel every other move. Here is a curiousity I discovered in a game I just started: If White moves the f pawn on the first move, black's unprotected pawn at j10 is threatened by the Pentere, also threatening a nasty double check, which would force the king to flee. j10 is an unprotected pawn. The problem with unprotected pawns in opening positions is not that they make a more inferior game than otherwise for the second player. That's a common misconception. It is simply that variations can be forced, giving the game an immediate tactical edge sometimes not allowing for the flexibility many prefer to have in their opening choices. For a large variant, I don't that's a bad thing. Please note: The forced moves will only happen if one of the players decides it would be of advantage to force them, just as it is optional whether to create the sort of pawn structure which leads to an open or closed game. JKn wrote on 2005-12-19 UTC:how are the pawns notated by? As in FIDE chess the pawns are notated by the absence of a 'piece' letter. (zzo38) A. Black wrote on 2005-12-17 UTCIf the Pentere/Quinqereme is notated by P, then how are the pawns notated by? Greg Strong wrote on 2004-07-08 UTCI think that there are a significant number of people who play Tenjiku Shogi, which is 16x16. In that game, however, each player has 2 Fire Demons which constantly 'burn' all enemy pieces on the eight adjacent squares, and it has quite a range, so the game has some very voilent openings with mass casualty. Maybe that helps to make it more playable. George Duke wrote on 2004-07-08 UTCExcellent ★★★★★Is 144-board the largest size that lends itself to coherent strategy? Turkish Great Chess V at 13x13 being played now at Courier seems to have passed that point. (Jupiter has 16x16.) And there is a photograph of Charles Fort from the 1930s playing on what is clearly a 1000-square board for a joke. Here Quintessence as improved Nightrider establishes with R-N-B all the standard compounds, but 12x12 squares must be upper limit for reasonable play. 17 comments displayedLater ⇩Reverse Order⇧ EarlierPermalink to the exact comments currently displayed.