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From what I've gathered (esp. if it's true that the manual distinguishes between painted and unpainted Maseitais), they probably include some '(ultra)rare' painted Maseitais in the booster packs? I wouldn't be suprised, since this IS a _Collectible_ Miniatures Game, after all. I would certainly love to see a picture posted, if anyone here has gotten one in their packs!? Maybe though those are in league with the Yeti and the Monster of Loch Ness ;) As for custom painting doubles, I'm definetely looking forward to that, I used to enjoy it, but have never been able to keep up with huge number of paintjobs needed for a certain company's game... at least that won't be a problem in the foreseeable future with ND :) P.
I bought both starter sets, and you're right about one thing, all the pieces in both of them are labeled 52604. It will be interesting to see what these numbers can tell us. What do you mean about officially painted pieces? Are you saying your starter set came with painted pieces? The only painted ones I got were the Navias. What about the booster packs? They don't come painted, or do they?
Jeremy, I plan on painting a few of my unpainted Maseitai pieces too (for home play use), though I plan on using alternate colors than the *official* painted versions so that I can still tell them apart. The 'official' rare, painted Maseitai I would believe are the only pieces legal to be doubled up (paired with an unpainted version) in your team. It doesn't seem like there is any special marking to differentiate the offically painted pieces versus the unpainted pieces, but there is an ID number on every figure that seems like it can be used for this purpose. So far the only 'official' painted playing pieces I have seen are the 14 Maseitai from the starter sets. Starter set pieces seem to have a different set of ID numbers (52604), than the boosters (21704, 41704, 61704). Since unpainted Maseitai numbered 1-14 are not found in the boosters, the rare, 'officially' painted Maseitai from Bandai will have the set of ID numbers from booster pack pieces only. Has anyone found Navia Dratp playing pieces with other ID numbers than the ones I listed above? It would be nice to have a list of which ID numbers occur in which formats (starter or booster packs) to help confirm if pieces are officially painted by Bandai or painted by another player or collector.
The cards are strictly for reference, and are not a play element. Personally, I came up with the idea of using them for a play element in my 4-player Navia Dratp variant (available on this website, chessvariants.com). But that is certainly not official and hasn't even been playtested yet.
Hi Jeremy, I'm already working on a full-fledged online/play-by-email adaptation for Navia Drapt, using the Vassal engine (www.vassalengine.org, also vassalengine at Yahoo Groups), as previously announced on this group. Thanks to the work that went into designing and building my Tori Shogi adaptation (the japanese chess variant ND seems to be most closely related to, and available in the file section of the vassalengine group), it's coming along nicely, and should be available soon. One concern is obviously whether or not Bandai would tolerate any such adaptation. Generally the guidelines at the vassalengine group (which has been used to adapt a number of miniature/board/wargames for quite a while now) is that as long as there is no official online version, and you make it clear that it is only for existing owners of the 'real' game, and non-profit, it may sneak by. Also they also generally only include the materials strictly necessary for actual play, and not any reference material, which you are supposed to own in physical form anyway. Which leads to my question regarding the cards: as I understand it (my set should arrive any day now, thanks to the *$#%& online store I unfortunately ordered it from): the Cards are only used for reference (about the special powers), but not as actual in-Game play element? Is that correct? Of course anybody is welcome to chime in on the above matters. (P.S.: I'm aware that in order to access the Beta vassalengine modules at the Yahoo group requires registration as member, and I will try to find a less cumbersome solution when the ND module is ready)
Hello Everyone! Not sure who this is going to. But I am also into Navia
Dratp....already bought 2 starters and 6 boosters...I thought that the
amount of Maseitai would be a lot higher. In actuality, I am only 3 short
of the entire set, with only 2 or 3 doubles. One of the missing is one of
the Navia.
<p>
I have read of the concerns of team building and here are my thoughts...I
don't really think there need to be any more rules. That is because you
cannot have doubles unless one of them is a rare painted version and the
other is grey (which is wierd, because I plan on painting mine). So the
most you could have of any one Maseitai would be 2. And so far, I haven't
seen anything that I would necessarily want to of.
<p>
I have already played a few games, and there are a couple of peices which
have good abilities, but the cost to use them are too high. Such as Lord
Kiggoshi. No way am I spending 25 to get to use his ability, and I usually
never had that many Gyullas to do it. Even at half cost, its too high. So a
light cost team with one or 2 at most heavy hitters seems the best.
<p>
Next, concerning check, from the rules, I do get that you have to announce
it, plus a Navia can't dratp if it is in check.
<p>
All in all I think ND is a great game. I think the peices SO FAR are very
balanced. no one piece will win you the game and no one combo will either.
Like Matt said, he won with hardly any pieces, just by having the right
number of gyullas. Smart bomb does you no good if you don't have the
cash, and if you ignore your Gulled you will lose control of the center
just like in chess. Plus if try and save just for that effect, your
opponent will have to much of an advantage on you with lighter pieces. You
will notice the better the effect, the worse the movent range. You have to
get the peices there to use them.
<p>
Lastly, I am working on a flash projector that people can use to play
online if anyone is interested. You'll need an IM to message moves, but
the peices for both sides will be moveable, as well as Gyullas and the
cards of all the pieces. Let me know if you are interested. Email me with
Navia Dratp in subject line at:
<p>
[email protected]<br>
Visit my site to at www.jc-designs.net or www.jc-designs.net in near
future for my band's music
Robert, yes, he can take the Navia and win the game. ND is based not on Chess, but on Shogi. Chess has a rule against any move that moves or exposes one's King check, but Shogi explicitly does not! Therefore, the form of draw in which the King has no legal move, does not take place in Shogi, because it's a game in which you kill the Jewelled General, not just checkmate him. As I read the rules of Navia Dratp I looked for rules about moving into check, and since there weren't any, I believe ND has this in common with Shogi.
7.) Chess/Check question: In Chess, if by moving a piece (other than your King) you leave your King open to be taken next turn, does your opponent need to announce that that move would cause checkmate, or can your opponent simply take your King to win the game next turn? Because of a lack of rules concerning the check Navia Dratp I'd like to simply be consistance with the Chess check/checkmate rules. The scenario I had in mind is where there are three pieces all in the same column. My King (Navia) was on its end line with the dratp Nebguard (forward Bishop) one space in front of my Navia. Three spaces in front of my Nebguard/Bishop was my opponents dratp Agunilyos (Queen). If the Nebguard/Bishop moves away diagonally and exposes the King/Navia can the Agunilyos/Queen simply take the King/Navia for the win?
Matt, my name is Robert Pedroza, now Tek34 on this board. I entered my name in my previous post, but it must have been lost in the validation process. I agree with you on #6. I just finished a long game won by Navia Goal. I didn't think the Navia Goal win was too likely a scenario, but in long game with few pieces remaining it becomes much more viable. I didn't have enough gyullas or fire power left to eventually dratp my navia, so I slowly sneaked my Navia forward until I was two moves away from the end line. At that point even the dratped Agunilyos (moves like a Queen) couldn't position itself to stop the end line run.
Thanks. Who are you, if you don't mind? I agree on #1, that's how I've been playing it, otherwise it would be crazy. Regarding #6, any dratp effect such as Gundrill or Olip that carries other pieces is a move done BY the dratping piece, ON the carried piece(s). I believe the carried piece is passively having something done to it, so it definitely may not dratp in my opinion. I almost hate to admit this, but sometimes fairy princesses kick monster butt. Yesterday, my brother had my back to the wall playing ND, all I had left was Navia + Pawn. He had several impressive warriors and I almost conceded. But he didn't notice I collected all the currency in the game. He was going to checkmate me on the next move, when I paid everything to invoke Navia Dratp and that was that. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, I guess. These four huge juggernauts surrounded a fairy princess and she blew them away in a single stroke... it was rich, I tell you. I love a game that's full of surprises without resorting to dice.
1.) Ans: I believe it does un-dratp and I have been playing it that way. Otherwise any Maseitai that goes to the graveyard a sacrifice ability, like Tiny Kiggoshi would not be able to return without immedately returning to the graveyard. At my demo at Origins the example I was shown of returning a Maseitai from the graveyard was with Tiny Kiggoshi, who later drapted again and used his ability again. 1b.) Another related question is when Koma uses sealing to return a Maseitai to the keep/seal, does the returned piece lose its drapt? 4. Can a Maseitai ever un-Dratp? Ans: No, unless another Maseitai's ability allows this. Nemchant upon dratping does un-dratp all the other playing pieces on the board. 5. Can a Maseitai perform a line-over? Ans: No. The rule book only has rules concerning gulled and Navia pieces. 5b.) When a red Gulled performs a line over does it get the 3 gyullas movement bonus (in addition to the 10 gyullas or Maseitai returning from the graveyard)? More questions: 6.)If you use Gundrill's invoked ability (4 gyullas per turn) this essentually ends your turn (option exists to move Gundrill prior to invoking this ability, working similar to the move and dratp). Gundrill's ability 'moves' another Maseitai, perhaps Tiny Kiggoshi. Does Tiny Kiggoshi's move constitute a real move in that Tiny K could then drapt in the same turn? (For now I'm playing that Tiny K could NOT drapt.) Great game, but it would be nice to get offical answers to these rules question from somewhere.
Brian, I wish there were some place to ask these questions. I already have several. Please post your questions to this page so that we can collect them all in one place. 1. When a Dratp effect or line-over returns a promoted Maseitai from the graveyard, does it un-Dratp? 2. On the movement compass, if the adjacent square is white but the second square out is colored yellow (like promoted Troll), does that mean that it is a leaping move to the second square? Or does the adjacent square have to be free of obstruction in order for Troll to get to the second square? 3. If a Maseitai movement compass had the Knight move square colored yellow, would that be a leap over any obstruction? Or would an adjacent square have to be unobstructed between the start and the destination-- the way it is in Chinese Chess? 4. Can a Maseitai ever un-Dratp? 5. Can a Maseitai perform a line-over?
James, I didn't know ND had one main creator. His name should be listed on this website where it says 'inventor: Bandai'! What's his name? Please ask him on behalf of chessvariants.com, if it's true that ND was inspired by Tori (Bird) Shogi! I played this game twice yesterday at the meeting of SEMI-Abstract Gamers. (South East MIchigan) Most of them basically agree with my position, that this will increase interest in chess variants. There are young people such as my brother who never bothered with chess until ND. He loves it.
After a few games (and quite a bit of hair-splitting, which is usual for our group), we came up with several questions. Does anyone know of where to get 'official' answers before the GenCon tournament(s)? Thanks in advance!
Garrison is my least favorite piece in the set. By the way the piece that can bounce off the sides of the board is called Hansa piece M-023. One of the pieces that I like in the boosters is Lord Kiggoshi, piece M-028. 25 gyullas cost. Power Smart Bomb. choose a 3x3 area on the Battlefield and send all battle pieces (even your own) to the Graveyard. Note: Navia's are immune to all effects.
PL, from having played this one time, I can already tell you that my negative evaluation of Garrison is slightly revised. He promotes from Shogi's 'Gold General' to Shogi's 'Lance,' but I now see that the ranged movement is printed as a dashed line. According to the rule book this means a ranged move that can leap over its first obstruction if desired. That partially makes up for the fact that the closer promoted-Garrison gets to the opponent's side, the fewer squares he is attacking, until finally he will sit on the end rank completely immobile. The book seems to confirm this, because it only refers to going off the end of the board with gulled (pawns) and Navias. The Maseitai are not even mentioned in that section. I still think Garrison is only worth using in Tandem with the Gundrill's 'Voice to Call' or Olip's 'Reflection in the Water.' You might like my games page with Maseitai pictures and comments: http://www.geocities.com/nemorathwald/Games.htm#naviadrapt I'm also pleased to report that one of the booster-pack Maseitai (I'm not sure of the name) is what we like to refer to as a Reflecting Bishop (see the Piececlopedia). He may bounce off the edge of the board. How cool!
Matt, Hope it will be enjoyable, and give us your impressions afterwards! Even if my order ships in time, I don't think it'll make it for the weekend, so I guess I can focus on the Vassalengine adaptation in the meantime... At some point it would be interesting to discuss strategy, since you seem to have quite some experience in chess-style games. Personally, I have a much better (yet still not very good) understanding of Go strategy than Shogi, or even western chess, since it was never a game popular in my circle of friends/gamers.
Matt, I'm glad you got your starters already. I'll be working at the Bandai booth at Gen Con Indy next week doing demos and Erick will be running Navia Drapt tournaments during the convention. Hopefully, we will get a good turnout for the tournaments. Creator of the game is supposed to come from Japan and play the winner of the tournament.
PL, my brother has Pirates otSM. I've played it and it's fun. The best thing about it is that they actually printed it all correctly; no errata sheet! The guy I'm corresponding with who is with Bandai organized play says to wait two or three weeks and they will have their company's organized play system complete. In the meantime my local chess variants group is getting together to play Navia Dratp tonight.
That is the funny thing though, usually an internet presence is the glue that holds a community of gamers together between conventions and special in-store events, as all the smaller and larger game companies catering to the 'Hobby market' know well. Unlike major companies like Hasbro, or Bandai, which cater to the mainstream market with palette-loads of games shipped to the local Toys'R'Us, mainly big 'properties' and family classics like Monopoly, Pictionary, Stratego etc., smaller companies like Wizkids, Decipher etc. need to foster a community, especially online(!), organize tournaments etc.,which obviously a large corporation like Bandai isn't used to doing (even though they talk the talk, as per the interview you mention) I also remember reading an interview (maybe the same) about them opening a specific website like that, but one would think that by the time a product is released, it should be up and running... I guess we'll see on Saturday. I just finished reading a book on (non-computer) Game Design and the rather peculiar american games industry responsible for manufacturing and distributing these games, and it was full of anecdotes of mismanagement and odd decisions that make you wonder what were they thinking? It's just funny to see it ongoing. Perhaps, because it is aimed at such a 'small' market they don't know well, Bandai has barely been able to meet the demand with more pre-orders than expected, and not wanting to overstock, and thus have no interest in pushing it at this time... Another example would be Wizkids, who previously ran into major problems producing _too much_ product, and not finding any buyers, and just recently largely miscalculated the interest in their latest product, Pirates of the Spanish Main, after fanning the interest of gamers for months _online_ (irregardless of wether it's actually a good game), and ended up well short of the demand. Now some people make quite a bit of money on eBay while Wizkids looses sales, scrambling to get more product manufactured. Anyway, just some idle musings...
Danny Satyapan of Bandai was interviewed and said 'Unlike with any product Bandai America's ever released, Navia Dratp, due to the nature of the property and the game, will see the overwhelming majority of presence in the hobby market. Our strategy is to have this product circulate in hobby for at least six months before and if it does eventually reach the mass retailers. Even if it does reach mass retailers, the hobby market will always be ahead of the game with new expansions in stores months before the mass market gets them. In addition, promotional figures for organized play support will only be available through hobby channels.'
Lucky You :) I ordered mine online since the only decent Gamestore in my area closed down a couple of months ago... there's a comicbookstore, but it's all YuGiOh cards :p I was thinking about starting a Yahoo Group, since there doesn't seem to be one yet, and it's free too... Of course a website would be more flexible, if you can host it & build it. Speaking of online presence, the Bandai marketeers are keeping a VERY low profile, aren't they? Companies like Wizkids drum up interest for months with sneak peeks, forums, downloadable rules etc, but Bandai's website: 'Coming soon'? They must be very sure of their success or, on the contrary, not care that much (since it's not a big property/brand anyway)?
Yesterday I called up a local games store to see if they could confirm that ND would be on their shelves in time for the official street date this Saturday, and they told me it had already arrived that very day! So I went down there and plunked down $60 for Starter Sets 1 and 2. I played this game yesterday, and I can tell you it's fun and beautiful. I'd like to start a fan site and call it 'Variant Pad.'
Here's a list I found of the additional Pieces available through Booster Packs: NAVIAS: N-003 Navia Io, N-004 Navia Krra MASEITAI: M-015 Schmidt, M-016 Matogayu, M-017 Midrah, M-018 Kanaba, M-019 Sungyullas, M-020 Tanhoizer, M-021 Kanimiso, M-022 Billpentod, M-023 Hansa, M-024 Kapinahs, M-025 Odd, M-026 Coydrocomp, M-027 Nemchant, M-028 Lord Kiggoshi, M-029 Chugyullas Together with the 2 Navias and 14 Maseitais from the Starter Sets, that makes for a total of 33 unique pieces in the first release.
PL, I'm definitely up for that. Just let me know when it's ready.
(Finally got my ID, since it looks like I'm posting more than one or two messages :) Since at least initially Navia Dratp will only have a small audience, and players will be fairly few and far inbetween, by location or schedule (in my case) I have been toying with creating a simple online/play-by-email adaptation to try and get to play with other enthusiasts. As a warm-up I have created a Tori Shogi adaptation (on which Navia Dratp seems to be loosely based) using a generic, free/open-source boardgame/wargame engine called the Vassal engine (http://vassalengine.org/) which runs on all major OSes, and allows for both online and play-by-email gaming. If you would like to give it a shot, the beta can be found in the 'Files' section of the Yahoo Group of the same name. Also let me know if you would be interested in playing that way. I admit that regrettably any virtual version won't let you use the nice physical components but at least you get to play... and hey, I plan to make an effort to make it as nice as possible (see my Tori Shogi adaptation) P.
(Follow-up to my preceding post) Today, a gallery of all pieces (& cards) came online. Thus the missing piece is the following: #14. 'Koma' looks like a sort of knight in a shell/stone armore. Moves to any of a line of 5 squares in front of him (good defense?) Power: 'Sealing' - For 8 Gyullas, send any Maseitai of your choice (even your own) from battlefield to the Keep(Seal), Koma must be sent to Graveyard. The pictures seem to be from the final mass-production version, which went through the unfortunately expected process of 'cheapification'. The biggest changes are: - noticeably less detailed Navias (especially noticeable since the pictures of the original promotional pieces are still used on the cards) Maybe a little paint touch-up would improve them, but the sculptures look less detailed too... - a redesigned board which look like it just might be a piece of paper folded in four (I always wondered how they would fit the original mat, even rolled up, into the boxes on display) Regardless of the physical aspect, I liked the original design better (but that can be helped too) But all the other parts, incl. the Maseitai still look very nice, and of course none of the above detracts from a hopefully interesting gameplay. P. I don't know if links to (commercial) websites are permissible, but at the moderator's discretion: http://www.toywiz.com/nadrfiga.html (I have not personally dealt with the shop, and do not endorse it in any way) Otherwise, as always, Google is your helpful assistant.
I noticed in the list below (and the card pics on your website (thanks for posting)) that there are only six different Maseitai listed for one of the starters. I know I could wait until the release :|, but I'm just curious if that means there are 2 of the same in that set, or if one was just accidentally omitted? Definetely looking forward to the game! P.
Thanks to Michele from Conclave Games in Louisiana for sending me info about the Maseitai that come with the first starter sets. In the following descriptions, keep in mind that each piece may only Dratp one time (I think). Here is the team that comes in the set of the Navia named Estelle. #1. 'Troll' looks like an elf with long ears, bug eyes and bug wings. It moves as a Ferz (one diagonal step). For 4 gyullas, Troll promotes to a Dabbabah Ferz (leaps to the second-out orthogonal space, or one diagonal step.) 'Navia Guard:' Can be summoned not just to a Summoning Square, but also to any square adjacent to the Navia. 'Energy Drop:' Earn 10 gyullas when Troll is sent to the Graveyard by your opponent. #2. 'Agunilyos' is an anthropomorphic tiger wearing armor and a cape with a sword. It moves as a King, but for 16 gyullas promotes to a Queen. #3. 'Hamulus Garuda' is an anthropomorphic pterodactyl carrying a six-barreled crossbow. It moves as a Ferz combined with non-leaping Alfil. (In other words, up to two steps in any diagonal direction.) For 9 gyullas it promotes to King + Bishop. #4. 'Garrison' is an anthropomorphic panther wearing armor and a cape with a sword. It starts as a Gold General (like a King missing the backward diagonal directions) and promotes for 5 gyullas to a Lance (a Rook that can only move forward). I sure wouldn't Dratp this piece, unless you have another one with the magic power to bring him back when he's stuck helpless on the farthest rank. #5. 'Netol' is a woman with rabbit ears, a huge collar-frill like a lizard, and skin as ebony as night. She can take one step straight forward or backward, or the forward diagonals, but not straight to the side, or back diagonals. For 5 gyullas she invokes the 'Spider's Thread:' Resurrect any Maseitai of your choice from your Graveyard to any open Summoning Squares, and send Netol to take its place in the Graveyard. #6. 'Gundrill' is a wrinkly Mandrill ape with screaming jaws full of fangs and a gigantic exposed brain. It moves as a Ferz combined with non-leaping Alfil. (In other words, up to two steps in any diagonal direction.) For 6 gyullas, decrease its range of movement so that it can only move side-to-side up to two spaces, and it gains 'Voice to Call:' Once per turn, you may move one of your battle pieces of your choice (such as the promoted Garrison, I hope) from anywhere on the battlefield to any open space adjacent to Gundrill, except for the ones straight left and right. The following is the team that comes in the set of the Navia named Deborah. #7. 'Tiny Kiggoshi' looks like a green Martian with a big spherical braincase, a conical hat with streamers, slouching posture and a vapid expression. It takes one step right, left or forward. For 14 Gyullas invoke 'Shared Destruction:' Send Tiny Kiggoshi plus any Battle Piece of your choice (even your own) from the Battlefield to the Graveyard. #8. 'Olip' is a little floating, puffy, multi-colored glowing jelly with flaps like a flying squirrel and tiny fangs under his cute beady eyes. He takes one orthogonal step. For 4 gyullas, invoke 'Reflection in the Water:' On the turn that you Dratp, switch the position of two of your pieces on the Battlefield. #9. 'Gilgame II' appears to be a giant bio-mecha like I used to see Voltron fighting. It moves as a Silver General (one step diagonally or straight forward). For 11 gyullas it promotes to King + Dabbabah + non-leaping Alfil. (1 or 2 steps in any direction.) #10. 'Moses' is an anthropomorphic dinosaur with a pteranodon crest, wearing armor and a cape and weilding a battleaxe. It moves up to 2 steps orthogonally. For 10 gyullas, promote to King + Rook. #11. 'Nebguard' is an anthropomorphic ram with giant spiral horns, wearing armor and weilding what appears to be a polearm. It moves up to two steps, diagonally forward or straight backward. For 3 gyullas, he promotes to go as far as desired in those three directions, like a 'forward Bishop' combined with 'backward Rook.' #12. 'Gyullas Turtle' is a flying robot turtle who moves one step in the three forward directions. For 5 gyullas, invoke 'Gyullas Glutton:' Earn 6 gyullas per turn when Gyullas Turtle moves from now on. #13. 'Kapinah' is an anthropomorphic bird of prey wearing armor and weilding a sword. It moves one step straight forward. For 8 gyullas, promote to move one step forward, left, right, or diagonally forward, and invoke 'Dive Bomb:' On the turn that you Dratp, immediately fly to any open space on the Battlefield.
I got the demo set in yesterday, and the game is gorgeous, and we're looking forward to generating some excitment for the game by the time it appears mid-August. The game play is relatively simple to grasp the basics, then it takes a bit more study to get to the strategy of it all. I know the collectibility of the pieces is going to turn some people off of the game. As a retailer, of course, I enjoy what collectibility does to my cash register. As a player, I'm torn on it. I like the excitment of the chase, but if I'm really wanting a particular piece, then I'm going to be frustrated if it doesn't turn up within a few purchases. Give the game a try...I think most of you will find it enjoyable. And if nothing else, the pieces are beautiful to look at--and not all of them are little 'girlie' figures. They should appeal to both genders.
Unofficial news but this should be accurate: Odd - (revival) has the ability to revive as many black gulleds as possible from your graveyard for 6 gyullas Lord Kiggoshi - (smart bomb) drapt for 25 gyullas and kill all pieces even your own in 3x3 grid on the board Nemchant - (power destroyer) for 7 gyullas un-drapt all pieces even your own on the board Hansa - one of his movements is move diagnolly but can bounce off the side of the board Those are a few of the pieces in the booster boxes.
Thank you very much, James! Can you give us the names, movements and powers of the pieces you've seen? That's what I'm dying to know!
From someone helping with Bandai's demos and game play. Trying to answer some of the questions I've seen: I believe that there will be 31 pieces total in the first series (7 each in 2 starters and 17 pieces only available in the boosters. There is a checklist in the instruction booklet that comes with the starters. Hope I remembered it correctly. Right now the rules allow you to have any 7 masetai that you wish on your side. No duplicates unless you have a painted and unpainted figure. The theory behind allowing any pieces of your choice is that if you pick figures that all have to high of a drapting cost (the more powerful figures) that you will never earn enough gyullas to use them. So you need to balance your team. We'll just have to see how this works out because I'm not sure if the theory will work or not. Because there are 3 different ways to win you may pick very different pieces from your opponent. Again, we will have to see if this theory works out or if everyone is going to play with the same figures. Bandai is having very small informal tournaments at some of the summer conventions. So far Origins, Anime Expo, San Diego Comic Con. First officially scheduled tournament will be at Gen Con Indy. We have been having the players draft pieces from the 2 starters to form their side and it has worked out pretty well so far. Not sure how Gen Con Indy will be run yet. Prizes have included starters and boosters for the top couple of winners. Hope this helps a little.
If every booster set has a rare piece, there will have to be very many different rare pieces. Otherwise, rare pieces will rarely appear in booster sets.
What I want to know isn't how many pieces are going to be rare but, how many are there going to be total in the series? (Series 1)Such as is there going to be a checklist type page sent out with each booster? Or no? And if not how will you be able to get one? Most people will want to know how many there are so that they know wether or not they have the whole set or, if they still need to get more. Also if there is only three pieces in the boosters then how will they be arranged? 1 Rare and two others per box. Or 1 rare, 1 uncommon and, 1 common per box? The set up design of the boosters will also have a big effect on sales too.
Mike, this is exciting news! Where was this tournament? How was it possible to conduct a whole tournament before the public release? Do you mean a demo? Can you describe some of the pieces?
I played Navia Dratp Tournement this weekend. There are a few rules that you don't have listed. 1 Winning the game: Capturing opponents Navia, Moving your Navia off the opposite side of the board, collecting all 60 points. 2 When a piece is captured, you recieve it's value in points, 1 or 3 for the pawns, and the promotion cost for a figure. 3. You may use your turn to promote a piece without moving it, but you can not move any other piece.
I don't believe it is a question if random distribution of pre-painted miniature games are immoral or unethical. The fact is products distributed in this manner are very popular right now. The random distribution element immediately creates a market and collectibility that does not exist with games that have all fixed pieces. Wizkids, who has a number of randomly distributed game products, tried to create an all fixed, what you see is what you get, game product in reaction to these types of concerns, but it did not catch on. Whether a game has too many rare, chase figures, cards, etc. is only a matter of concern if you want to compete in ultra-competitive tournaments. Most CCGs and TMGs play just fine even on limited resources. You don't need a complete set or multiple broken chase figures to play. A starter set or two, and perhaps a few boosters later on is usually more than enough to try a game out and play the game for fun just like any other fixed game set. Having a number of extra playing pieces available to add to your game later if you really like the game is just an added option that doesn't exist with most off the shelf, fixed game sets.
One of the reasons that video-game adaptations of these sorts of games are so great is that the only money you spend is the $20-$50 on the game itself... Of course if successive versions are released, we all know how that goes. Still, there really isn't anything like playing a game with physical pieces with a human sitting opposite you. An average of $3 a piece may seem a little high, but do recall that you use much fewer pieces in an army for Navia Dratp than you do cards in any given CCG, meaning that in the long run you may spend less money to get a 'really good' set. Of course, none of us knows until it's released. I suggest we all wait until then, and *then* start to bash the game's little details.
Fergus, It's been confirmed by distributors that ND booster packs will be mystery grab bags of 3 minis for $9. The same with the 8 minis in the starter set, except you can see the Navia through the packaging. Wizkids already uses this marketing tactic, and me and my brother probably have 200 click-dial miniatures between us. I stopped buying them cold turkey last year after I saw Navia Dratp, and started selling them off, because I am strictly a 'one-expensive-miniatures-game-at-a-time' kind of guy. I feel your pain. Michael, true or false: game companies should not sell a sealed box of random game components in which the purchaser does not know what he is paying for. Is such a company exploiting its customers? Or as I would say, hey, I can't blame them for milking a cash cow for all it's worth. The answer could be interpreted as a statement about morality. Stay on this channel after the movie for a shocking expose on the 11:00 news. I was being deliberately hyperbolic, sorry-- but that's because controversy is so much more interesting. ;^) Any relation to David Howe?
Matt, You might want to consider getting a userid that will allow you to post here without waiting for an editor to okay your messages. It's free, and it will also give you the ability to edit your messages after posting them. I think Larry was complaining about a marketing ploy for getting people to buy more than they need. It's commonly done with cards. You buy a packet of trading cards without knowing what's in it and hope you get some new ones. But it seems less likely to me that this would be done with figurines. I imagine that Navia Dratp will include some starter sets and booster sets, but I doubt that they will be selling their figurines in mystery grab bags. With the higher prices of figurines, I expect that would be a bad marketing ploy. It seems more likely to me that most figurines will be sold individually like action figures. As for myself, I don't expect to buy the game at all. This is partly because I'm poor, and this game is just an extravagant luxury item to me. Also, I have never been into collectible games, perhaps because they were never a fad when I was a kid. The first collectible game I ever heard of was Magic the Gathering, and I never heard of it until I was in graduate school. And I've still never played it. The only collectible game I ever played was Pokemon, which I played once with a much younger cousin who was into the game. I somehow won without really understanding the rules, and I know I won only because that's what my cousin told me. When I was in high school, the really big thing in gaming was Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. I remember remarking once that I had spent around $200.00 on this game. It was like a collectible game in that you would buy it in components, but it wasn't the same thing. I would describe it as a modular game, not a collectible game. The main things to buy for the game were rulebooks, modules, and dice. You could buy figurines for it too, but I never did. I was still in high school the last time I played AD&D, and I eventually sold most of my books. Since then, I have never played another role playing game. I do hold out some hope that Navia Dratp will draw some people into Chess variants. It sometimes takes only a little push to move someone in this direction. My early interest in Chess variants had lain dormant for many years. In 1998, I downloaded an abandonware copy of Battle Chess II for the Amiga, and I ran it on an Amiga emulator on my PC. This turned out to be Chinese Chess, which got me interested in the possibility of finding programs that would play other Chess variants. I then found programs for Shogi, Grand Chess, and Capablanca's Chess. A short time later I discovered this site, and shortly after that, Zillions debuted, and the rest is history. It's possible that Navia Dratp will directly inspire an interest in Chess variants in only a few people, but even if that's all that happens, it could have a rippling effect if even just one of them becomes a regular member of the CV community. So there is potential that Navia Drapt will help the CV cause even if I'm not going to buy the game myself.
Jared, all I came up with was the four-player rules. I was just as surprised as you that I was attributed on the page. ND 4-hand is a speculative unauthorized rule change that has never been played yet and is not associated in any way with Bandai. It's based on Hannibal, a 3-hand 3D chess totally of my own invention, which my local abstract group has playtested. They say I'm really on to something with that game. Fergus, I agree that you have expressed only skepticism and not complete dismissal. And, the responses here so far have been mostly positive. But you are wrong that no one has gone so far as to completely dismiss the game. Michael just got done saying in his last post that the benefit to the CV field is unlikely to exceed the harm. An anonymous commentor said, and I quote, 'Sorry, but I just can't generate any enthusiasm for this game.' I respect these valid opinions and consider them worthy of a thoughtful response. This is a very enjoyable discussion. I myself have pointed out serious needs for improvement. In a well-rounded view, by no means is ND for everybody. I'm excited about it because it fuses my pre-existing interests in both CV and collectable miniatures. A few of the objections have not made sense. For example, does the need to own exactly the components that one desires make this a sinister game with an immoral concept? Where does that come from? In a collectable game each miniature is its own independent product. They're designed to be a game construction set in which any combination of miniatures is fun. I can think of several Mechwarriors I'd like to own, but a battle isn't impoverished for their absence. Exchanging them with other players has also been fun, since it's a social experience.
It pertains to the discussion because he is trying to tell everyone who has dismissed any part of it, since it isn't necessarily the entire ruleset of a game which makes people dislike it -- sometimes a seemingly minor issue can cause someone to dislike an otherwise good game. I would like to know whether Matt Arnold is actually an inventor of this game, as its entry states. I know he did invent the four-handed variation, but I thought that was pretty much it.
Tony, I understand Matt's argument, but what I don't understand is how it pertains to anything anyone has said here, since no one here has gone so far as to utterly dismiss the game.
I think that what Matt is trying to argue for is: give the game a chance! Will it appeal to everyone, especially chess enthusiasts? No. Do collectible games (of which I too have partaken) have a 'down-side'? Yes. Does ND have some appealing features? Yes. Will it at least expose more people (kids) to chess and chess variants? Yes. So, let it be, and, in some way, support it. This page is a good idea.
I do agree that Battle Chess does an excellent job of making humaniform pieces distinct from one another. I wish there were a Battle Chess update for Windows that would actually play Chess well and took advantage of true color and high resolution displays.
Larry, you make a good point about obsessive collectors. But I think the problem lies with them and not the company. I expect there will be certain Maseitai which I like, and I'll casually seek those through trading. Maybe one or two I'll buy through e-Bay for ten bucks. If I don't get them, so what? It's just a game. I don't care if I get the entire collection, although I do intend to try to obtain photos of them all. As long as I take a contented attitude instead of being sucked into greed and envy, I won't spend too much money. And then what would be the big deal?
First of all, Magic the Gathering has caught on -- you just need to know where to look for it. I see MTG players all the time at our local community college, as an example. One of the things I keep seeing in this discussion is the lack, at present, of team-building rules. I would like to point out that most CCGs have no such rules, except those like disallowing too many of one card in a deck (and I would assume that this would eventually get a rule like that at some point). The reason for this is that there is a counterbalance to power and usefulness, that counterbalance being the rarity (and eventually, street cash value) of said cards. (There is often another counterbalance, too: the cost to utilize rarer and more powerful things. When playing Yu-Gi-Oh, for example, you can't play strong monster cards without either sacrificing weaker ones or obtaining a bunch of cards to 'fuse' together. This kind of counterbalance is already in Navia Dratp in promotion powers.) My two cents on the anthromorphic-style pieces, as opposed to abstract stuff: It's possible to create a set of pieces which are quite easy to distinguish from each other. Look at Battle Chess, for instance. Besides, I don't really see how you could get different pieces in Navia Dratp easily confused, since they all have that little descriptive disc on them. Finally, I hope that this game doesn't get a Saturday morning cartoon (or any other morning, for that matter) because when anything gets its own cartoon, it turns into a game that most older players 'wouldn't be caught dead with.'
When I was younger I fell for the 'collectible' game series. I was into Doomtrooper and Imajica cards. I spent a lot of my hard-earned cash attempting to 'collect' these entire series, buying boxes and boxes of cards. But these companies enjoyed torturing me, keeping my goal just beyond my reach. Doomtrooper increased its volume with the seemingly un-ending introduction of expansion sets. Imajica went out of print long before I could even hope to obtain my goal. I have shoe boxes filled with these cards, carefully filed and catalogued. Not being used or enjoyed, just taking up space in my closet. And filled primarily with un-godly numbers of the dreaded common cards. Now I'm not saying that this game will have the same result. I will just be leery of investment into something that I cannot obtain in its entire. Will the company offer the entire series as a set? or will they dole out these 'pieces', forcing us to buy endless numbers of the same pieces in order to obtain that one good piece. If the latter, I have absolutely no intention of even considering purchasing a single part of the game.
An ugly, meaningless name was not a problem for Yu-Gi-Oh, an anime-themed franchise which is wildly profitable and popular in both its card and miniatures collectable forms. I myself and countless kids and adults I know collect Wiz Kids click-dial miniatures which are just as expensive as Navia Dratp, and it too is financially successful beyond any wildest dreams. If you know anything about Japanese naming their products, just be grateful it isn't worse. Japan has a beverage named 'Bacardi Sweat.' I agree that ABC chess, Nova chess and Pick-a-Team chess are intrinsically better games than ND. Vastly so. But by the standard of intrinsic objective superiority, the Klingon language is inferior to the artificially constructed language Lojban. But it's exponentially more widely spoken than Lojban, because of Star Trek. This is the same kind of 'unfair' reason that ND will be more popular than its superiors. BUT... unlike many other Lojban supporters, I support Klingon just because at least it exposes people to the hobby of artificial languages. I suggest we take the same attitude here: at least ND is a chess variant. People who Bandai markets to are unlikely to even find out about superior chess without ND as a gateway drug. It can never in a million years take away the fan base of people who would care about serious chess variants and add them to the ranks of toy collectors. Think of it as taking a bit of the gigantic target market of collectors and adding a few of them to the ranks of chess variant enthusiasts. Therefore for ND to be 'bad' or 'good' depends on what you want out of it. The perfect chess, no. Good for our hobby, yes. You don't have to like it or play it to be glad it's there.
I had a thought about creating some kind of game which is played with collectable play money. This collectable play money could come in the form of colored plastic chips, maybe in the colors red, white, and blue. In fact, people might invent all kinds of games using this collectable play money, and they could set up places for people to come together to play these games with custom-made collectable play money for that place exclusively. I imagine that this could turn into a booming business, especially if these gaming places will both buy and sell their collectable play money to those who come to play.
I got a demo of Navia Drapt at Origins in Columbus, OH. I found it mildly entertaining. As a chess variant it is more comparable to WizKids Creepy Freaks than any of the other clicky games. While Creepy Freaks, for the most part is failing, I would say that that is more because of the theme and demographic that the game targeted. Creepy Freaks childish, gross out theme appealed to no one. I couldn't even give pieces away to children in the neighborhood. Navia Drapt is promoting the quality of their anime pieces. While I don't necessarily believe these figures are that much better than some of the other pre-painted miniature games, they are very good, and we have yet to see the color, painted versions of the Maseitai. The Anime theme is popular at this point in time and it should appeal to a larger audience than Creepy Freaks. All that being said Creepy Freaks was a decent game, despite how it was sold, and the same game will soon be translated into an online version. So perhaps pre-painted miniature, chess variants have a future. The advantage I see with a chess variant miniature game like this over some of the other current miniature games, is that even if you can't find someone who already plays this game, you can always teach someone on the fly. Learning a chess variant game like this is probably as easy as teaching someone to play chess or backgammon for the first time. I can't say the same thing about most other current miniature games. Any miniature or CCG game can become a money game, but only if you are interested in competing at the highest level play, which usually isn't the most fun. I can see this game being fun with just the two starter sets. A few boosters could be added for variety without making the game too competitive. The anime figures will likely also appeal to some collectors which should help the health of game through added sales and possibly create some new gamers. I believe the game is worth checking out. It is definately worth trying to download or pick up some rules to gauge it for yourself.
'The other problem I see with this game catching on is that
collectible pieces are going to cost much more than collectible
cards.'<br> I think a better analog to Navia Dratp would be the
'Clix' collectible miniatures put out by <a
href='http://www.wizkidsgames.com/wk_home.asp'>WizKids</a>.
Booster pack containing only a handful of pieces run something like $10 in
the US. Still, I'm not sure that a chess variant will be able to compete
commercially with clicky games. I agree that the name is horrible, but
what I think about it is a lot less important than what Bandai's target
demographic thinks about it.
If Magic the Gathering could catch on, maybe this game has a chance. But I'm going to remain skeptical until I see it catch on. Magic has some marketing advantages in its favor. First of all, Magic the Gathering is a really cool and meaningful name, whereas Navia Dratp is an ugly, meaningless name. Now maybe it will catch on despite that. Yu-gi-oh! is a stupid name, yet it has enjoyed some popularity. The other problem I see with this game catching on is that collectible pieces are going to cost much more than collectible cards. But, since I collected Star Wars action figures as a kid, maybe that won't be that big a hurdle. However, I think a Saturday morning cartoon show is what this game will need to really catch on in popularity. The piece shown in the photo is pretty, but it also looks like something most little boys wouldn't be caught dead with. Little boys normally prefer something more masculine than a cute little fairy. Including scary monsters would probably make the game more appealing to that demographic. And, considering that Chess variants seem much more popular among males than females, for nearly everyone at this site is male, it's going to be important to reach a male audience with this game. As for pieces such as these vs. more abstract pieces, I am a strong supporter of abstraction in piece design. For me, one of the things that helps make a game more playable is being able to tell the difference between different pieces at a glance. I can easily do this with a Staunton set, with my own Abstract set, and with some of the more abstract sets I've found in Chess programs (such as Futura in Checkmate! or Art Deco in Chessmaster 6000). But when I've played Chess with humaniform figurine pieces, or 3D images of such in a computerized Chess game, it has been easier for me to confuse pieces.
[[I like the appearance of the toys (yes, they are toys and I will call them that) better than the minimalistic abstract pieces or ugly computer icons typical of chess variants.]] Give me elegant abstract geometrics over garish toys every time. I strongly disagree that the graphics typical of chess variants, especially many found on this site, are 'ugly'. <[[I also find Navia Dratp's wild unpredictability exciting.]] I find wild unpredictablity to be a bad thing for a strategy game. [[A collectable craze will generate publicity for chess variants in general, where it is most important, among the next generation in their formative years. That can only result in benefit to this hobby.]] I seriously doubt that the kids who take to the toyishness, collectability, and wildness of Navia Dratp will ever be interested in going 'back' to pure chess variants. Sorry, but I just can't generate any enthusiasm for this game.
That's why there need to be rules for team-building. Personally, when playing this game I intend to ask my opponent to agree on teams of a comparable strength level, or a handicap which I consider reasonable for our skills. I would not agree to play until Maseitai had been chosen which would result in an interesting game. Keep in mind I am not a purist. I like the appearance of the toys (yes, they are toys and I will call them that) better than the minimalistic abstract pieces or ugly computer icons typical of chess variants. These are characters with personalities and stories, not geometric patterns. Purists who enjoy the perfect determinism, perfect information, elegant simplicity and predictable objective value systems to study in chess will surely roll their eyes at the magical powers, because it throws these factors into a cocked hat. I enjoy those factors as much as the next chess variant enthusiast, but I also find Navia Dratp's wild unpredictability exciting. In collectable games, every season the company releases new pieces that throw the existing game analysis out the window. And let's not forget, one of the most important factors about a game is finding somebody who's willing to play it with you. A collectable craze will generate publicity for chess variants in general, where it is most important, among the next generation in their formative years. That can only result in benefit to this hobby.
Um, can we please all voluntarily choose to limit our statements to comments that apply to the item in question? Not a demand, just a personal request as a favor. From the positive responses of Gary, Jared and others, I can see that there will exist a demand to play this one by e-mail. I had another idea. What if booster packs in a future expansion were to come with collectable board sections? Some could have various arrangements of squares, some could have impassable squares, and so forth. Each player could than bring his half of the board to the game.
jared's 'personal statement' is completely inappropriate for this website, and it's a mystery to me why it hasn't been removed by the editors. freedom of speech does not give you the right to say whatever you want on a privately owned website such as this one. jared is free to say whatever he wants on his own website.
Michael, Click on Jared's name for the antecedent. Jared, I think you need to work on improving your oppressed, anti-authoritarian attitude, and you need to let people express opinions that are different from yours without crying false alarms of oppression and authoritarianism. There is no oppression or authoritarianism in expressing opinions and giving reasons for them. I am a firm believer in the principles expressed in John Stuart Mill's essay 'On Liberty' (http://www.constitution.org/jsm/liberty.txt) I believe in both allowing and exercising free speech for the sake of getting at the truth, and I never tell someone to shut up just because I disagree with him. That would be oppressive and authoritarian.
I figured out that the title is an anagram of VARIANT PAD. But even if that was intentional, it hardly seems like an adequate excuse for such a perfectly awful name. Does anyone know what inspired 'Navia Dratp' to be called that?
Oh, it has an antecedent all right. In the meantime, Fergus, shut up.
I played a demo of this game at Origins in Columbus, OH this past weekend and it's incredible! There have been many variants to standard chess in recent years, but this one creates an entirely new GAME, with HUGE strategic depth, that could definitely become a staple game if it's promoted correctly. With 3 ways to win, it's definitely going to challenge chess enthusiasts but is still fun for the casual player. Once you start playing this game, it's possible that you might not want to ever play standard chess again. I'm going to be analyzing this game until it comes out on August 14.
In that case, maybe Navia Dratp should have its own directory.
You do indeed have a contributor who is willing and able, nay eager, to
fully cover Navia Dratp as it develops. I intended from the start to
create an ever-growing guide to the pieces and their value analysis at
the
very least. I think Chessvariants.com will be amenable to hosting that.
Mr.
Howe has been very patient with applying the changes I've submitted over
the past year. But if I could get direct access, it could ease his
workload when my additions to the page become a raging torrent in late
August.
<p>-Matt Arnold, southeast Michigan, USA
<br><a href="http://www.geocities.com/nemorathwald/Games.htm#naviadrapt">http://www.geocities.com/nemorathwald/Games.htm#naviadrapt</a>
'I would think that it would be the CVP's duty to include in-depth coverage.' The CVP is not a person and has no duties. Nor do those of us who maintain this site have any duty to provide any coverage of this game. My objection is to the notion of duty. We may have an interest in covering it. It might be desirable to cover it. We may even have an editor who will be willing and able to cover it. But it is not our duty to cover it. Oh, and Jared, I hope you don't have any contrary opinions of your own. Otherwise, I may have to authoritatively oppress them out of you.
Will the CVP be covering this game in depth (i.e. with piece lists, etc., in the manner of many MTG sites) when it is released? I'm extremely interested in this game myself, and it being a chess variant, and a collectable one at that, I would think that it would be the CVP's duty to include in-depth coverage. (Of course, they could link to another fansite, but that wouldn't be as good, IMO -- what would be better for drawing in new visitors to the site than a good section on a game they want to know about?)
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