Comments/Ratings for a Single Item
Standard Shatranj is an excessively boring game. It is very slow, the Pawns and Ferzes merely crawling over the board, and the draw rate between equally skilled players is about 70%. (For Mad Queen this is about 30%, for Capablanca-type variants only 16%.) Having watched many Shatranj blitz games, I can imagine why there was such an incessent drive to modernize some of the pieces. I don't think shuffling would solve anything. And it certainly would not have to invoke Fischer, as there is no castling, and none of the special rules invented by Fischer to preserve castling in Shuffle Chess would have to be applied. (i.e. no reason to require K between R in Shuffle Shatranj.) Elephants would still remain useless pieces under normal shuffle rules, which would keep color-bound pieces on different colors. It would be more interesting to allow Elephants on the same color, so they can defend each other (as in Xiangqi), then they could be used in fortress building. But the risk is that the game might become even more difficult to win then, in absence of Cannons to penetrate the fortress.
I suppose, the mentality of modernity isn't compatible with historical Shatranj. This doesn't mean that the game is totally uninteresting. We still like to watch costume films about the 18th century, but nobody would like to dress up like that anymore and dance silly minuets. We are all products of our time. Should we analyze the variants created on this site, we would get a picture of the collective psychology of modernity. In my view, many variants are somewhat overbearing and high-flying, i.e. simply over the top. But far from all, of course. /Mats
The linked comment is vintage Betza, usually even better expressed in his polished articles. Betza comments always as ''gnohmon'' and had this to say over seven years ago at Chaturanga in 2002. http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=513 ''My average of the two skills is higher than the divine Parton or superhuman Fischer.'' Like Gilman for many years, Betza did not use formal identification, and so could not revise his words. I think there are some contradictions in terms here Betza would not fully defend. Yet this comment shows Betza's coherent/confused mindset the year he left. By August 2003, no more all-too-profound Ralph Betza. Also some of this particular comment by Betza would be deliberate obfuscation by him just short of sabotage -- conclusion that I can justify and cross-index another time. A couple significant sentences, midst the true account, he knows to be untrue or does not really mean for effect, in hyperbole not for purpose of satire.
Shatranj2880 preserves Alfil bindings. Shatranj Shuffle opposite sides' 8 r__n__a__k__f__a__n__r starting arrays are perfect mirrors. That goes 7 __ __ __ __ __ __ __ for the four Alfils (elephants) as well. Each 6 __ __ __x__ __ __ __x team has one White- one Black-cell Alfil. In 5 __ __ __ __ __ __ __ the perfection of mediaeval game, there can 4 __x__ __ __ __x__ __ NEVER be Alfil x Alfil.In two words,IM- 3 __ __ __ __ __ __ __ POSSIBLE, for their respective bindings never 2 __ __ __x__ __ __ __x impinge. In board to left, we use the standard 1 r__n__a__k__f__a__n__r RNAKFANR for convenience of familiarity. a b c d e f g h Imagine also the mediaeval game was checkered, which was not always the case. The White's Alfils are c1 and f1, Black's c8 and f8. Now c1 and f8 are on black SQUARES. Follow f8's binding-path as f8-d6-b4-d2-f4-h6 and two what we might call ''offshoots'' h2 and b8. Each of the four Alfils reach their particular 8 squares for 32 all together, half the board. Notice f8-Alfil has route that just nips White's c1 (at d2) but he does not hit him. Both f8 and c1 stay on Black squares but never correspond by reaching exact same squares. Their bindings are all of them independent of one another. There can neither be AxA nor even Alfil defending Alfil. NOT IN ALL RECORDED HISTORY. Shatranj2880 adds 2879 more initial arrays with the SAME CHARACTERISTIC free-ranging Alfils -- proven valid piece interaction for a thousand years from 600 to 1500 -- and good enough for any right-thinking person for the longer-term foreseeable future. __________________''Can we speculate that, had the later, very efficient malaria protist lived in Europe during antiquity, classical culture with its influence on modern civilization worldwide would not have developed?'' --Ricardo Guerrero microbiologist
It tends not to be noticed that C960 castling is a 2/3 reduction, because of the other accompanying reduction for Bishop-same-colour. Instead of every King placement, C960 permits only 56 of the 168 respecting the two Rooks' positioning. (In general, on 8x8 fixed castling is better, and by 8x10 free castling is better -- but that's an educated value judgment.) Since ShatranjShuffle2880 has no castling, it has 3 times the arrays available over C960, wherewith Rooks to King placements are not mattering. Hence the exact times 3, what we were trying to understand. (1) Incidentally with mirrors 168x2 = 336, and that number 336 keeps recurring, chiefly just because it is 8x7x6, such as at Man & Beasts 04, http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=23281. (2) Technically 960/40320 = 0.0238 = 1/42, the fraction being exact. So C960 uses only 1/42 of pure (8 factorial), representing every possible permutation, and most of the 960 are still ugly as a bulldog.
In a way, shatranj is like baseball. It packs 10 minutes of action into 4 hours of playing time. :-) The only people who play it, as far as I can tell, are us, pretty much. The only place I found playable shatranj online besides here was at Zillions, and that was mostly all shatranj variants. Even the one guy who offered the original gave variants on it. [Okay, I didn't look hard, but still, looking through the first few pages of a few google searches turned up only Zillions and this site for playable shatranj. Not a big audience.] As a game, shatranj was superceded by more modern forms, which had better play value. Chess is a better game than shatranj, just as Go is a better game, with more play value, than tic tac toe. But shatranj superceded some other, more ancient game[s], because it was better and gave more play value then. [Think about that for a minute: if the alfil and ferz were significant improvements over the pieces before them, how bad was that previous game, to modern sensibilities? ;-)] Maybe it comes down to a case, not of exhausting the possibilities, but of exhausting the probabilities. FIDE seems to have hit that point, at high level, anyway. In some senses, the 'good moves' are already taken. That's why the shuffle. Now, note this - since chess has 2 infinite slider [singly] colorbound bishops to shatranj's pair of 8-square-only alfils, and the modern queen to shatranj's colorbound ferz, clearly, the 'good moves' in chess far outnumber those in shatranj. For shatranj to be worthwhile as an intellectual game of the first order again, it must be updated, not just re-arranged. To keep it shatranj, the updating must involve shatranj-style pieces, and avoid the infinite sliders that mark modern chess as clearly different. The goal is to increase the possibilities without turning shatranj into FIDE.
General is obviously a wrong translation for ferz. Original name of this peace was 'Farzin' (that in europe spelled it 'ferz' or 'ferse') and 'Vazir' (that also spell 'Vizier'). Farzin is a persian word that commonly precieved meaning is 'Minister' or probably 'Prime minister' but as murray mentioned and I discussed in my comment to ferz article in your site, this is not totally true. original meaning of farzin is wiseman. altough there is a strong relation beetween wisemanship and role of ministers in history. main chracteristic of persian and Islamic prime minister was extensive Knowledge and a king must elect most wisest men for his prime minister. this reflected in many tale, folk and storys. 'Vazir' is an arabic word that means 'Minister' or even 'Prime minister'. there is a rationlaity for name of 'General', in time of war 'Prime minister' is present and act as a general but this is not his name and no one call it General. there is many source that translate this peace fers or vizier. if you want to translate it, Minister or even prime minister is true. another wrong name in this article is 'Knight'. name of this peace in both persian and arabic literature was a word that means horse, as sanskrit name of peace in chaturanga and name of peace in modern chess in most regions in asia. in europe shatranj horse changed to chess knight. I think this transition is for giving humanistic personality to chess peaces, this change also happend for elefant that replace with bishop and other names.
We should not confuse 'European' with 'English'. In no other language I know the Bishop is actually called after a clerical person. In German is is 'Laufer' (runner), in Dutch 'Loper' (walker) or 'Raadsheer' (adviser, counselor), in French 'Fou' (fool, jester), in Spanish 'Alfil' (so they retained the Arabic word for elephant, despite the fact that the piece moves differently). Similarly the name of the Knight piece in many languages has nothing to do with a knight. In German it is 'Springer' (leaper), in Dutch 'Paard' (horse), in Spanish 'Caballo' (horse). All in all, Chess pieces have pretty exceptional or weird names in English, if you compare it with the rest of the World. But I suppose any language has the right to name the pieces like they want. There is no need for litteral translation. The name Lance for this Shogi piece is a much better name than the litteral translaton of the Japanese 'Incense Chariot'. (And I don't think it would be progress to refer to a Bishop as 'Angle Mover' either, there.) As to the Ferz, it is interesting to note that in Chinese Chess (Xiangqi) the common name for this piece is Adviser (the alternatve name, '(Palace) Guard', no doubt being inspired by the unique feature of Xiangqi of the Palace board zone to which this piece is restricted). It is sometimes also called 'Mandarin', which I guess in Chinese culture is some kind of Advisor to the emperor. The Elephants there are also often referred to as Ministers. Confusingly enough, in English, the word 'minister' can also refer to a clergiman, as well as to a statesman. In Shogi all pieces with King-like moves are called 'generals' (includingthe King itself, which is the 'Jade General').
you should consider that walker, Shooter, raunner, jester and bishop all are humanistic personas. my discussion is against using 'General'. If english name for this peace before changing piece move was general, this name is certainly correct but if thay named it ferz or another name you should use it. I'm not able to find any english authoritative sources of chess history.
The issue of Xiang Qi actual strengthens Mohsen's case for not calling the Ferz a 'General', as General is the name generally used for another piece in that game. The Ferz represents a kind of adviser in both games, so why call it something that doesn't mean a kind of adviser? The Shogi analogy doesn't work at all. The names of the King, Rook, and Bishop pieces in European languages are regularly used in the context of FIDE Chess, so it is natural for Europeans to use these names even when playing Shogi - and even devise new European names for the rest of the pieces. My own Chatelaine, Helm, Point, Primate, and Wing are the most comprehensive list of such names. Incidentally one player's King in Shogi is called 'King's general' and the other 'Jewelled general', the latter without specifying a particular kind of jewel. Calling the Ferz a General simply doesn't compare. The Ferz is this context not an piece exotic to players alreadsy familiar with FIDE Chess, bit the precursor of the FIDE Queen. As far as I am aware it was only ever known in Europe either as Ferz or some variant spelling, or by the local names now used by the modern Queen. One small point about real-life bishops: they are certainly not 'Humanistic' in the religious sense, quite the reverse!
Mohsen's ''English authoritative sources of Chess history'' are still led by 100-year-old Murray 'A History of Chess'. That is unfortunate because Murray's style is not fluid. Yet the other chess historians do not deserve mention on the same level because of far less content than Murray's. How about etymology of ''King'' through Persia or Arabia? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=20318. Also HORSE is already prevalent English name for the chess piece hippogonally jumping. In English there ought to be non-humanistic names for all six chess pieces. Metals could be used, or animals, or birds. Here is a chart of equivalences: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=18698. Metals have Pawn-Silver, Horse-Iron, Bishop-Mercury, King-Tin, Queen-Copper, Tower-Lead. Then player promotes his Silver to Copper, rather than Iron Horse, and starts with cornered Leads, who move orthogonally. There is correspondence to Gilmanesque organization in Silver obviously being one Shogi-style pawn-type, and like Tin King, who may be imagined tinpot dictator or 'Wizard of Oz' tinman aspiring for a heart. Just ''Tin'' impartially takes the sting out of it all. Tin check.
because i didnn't play a lot.
A poorish game by modern standards, especially due to the alfil pieces, but modern chess is indebted to this historic early version of it.
Here's a 10x10 Shatranj-style variant with 4 Kings per side:
I knew the rules of Shatranj for a few years but had never attempted an actual game. But these days I'm again delving into historic Chess variants. My primary goal is to find a few sample games of Shatranj which would hopefully let me understand why the game was appreciated (for me it is just impossible to play it: I fill lost when I open it in Zillions, I don't know where to go, what short term goals to pursue).
While searching for sample games, I discovered the astonishing lack of historic recorded games of Shatranj. I found but two, dating back to the Xth century. It turns out that apparently Shatranj was never played from the initial setup. Players would agree on a standartized position -- which could be called an opening in modern terms -- and would use it as actual setup. I found sixteen examples of such openings but without an analysis of their strengths and weakness it is still difficult to use them. One can still admire their poetic names.
In my opinion, we see Shatranj as a poor, uninteresting game just because we don't know enough about it. It would be so nice if somebody could provide us with the analysis of As-Suli, mentioned by George Duke back in 2008 in the first comment to this page. Perhaps more knowledge of the actual way this game was played would allow us to better appreciate it, since initial setup, piece movement and winning conditions don't seem to be enough?
Shatranj
General moves like queen in the Interactive diagram
Oops, I wrote the Q in the move field, instead of the id field, where I had intended it. Thanks for spotting this!
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