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ChessVA computer program
. Program for playing numerous Chess variants against your PC.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, Nov 26, 2020 10:19 AM UTC:

I found the following search scheme to work quite well in games with drops: you distingush check-drops from other drops, and make a special move generator to selectively generate those (by generating retro moves for all piece types, starting from the King). At d=1 the only drops searched are the check drops; at d>=2 LMR reduces non-captures by 1 ply, and (non-check) drops by 2 ply.

In CrazyWa I used a King Safety evaluation that seemed to work quite well generically across many drop variants. It was kind of unusual by being asymmetric. It awardeds a bonus to the side to move which is the product of the hand value and the number of squares attacked next to the enemy King (the possible drop locations). The latter could be cheaply calculated as side effect of the move generation, while the hand value can be kept track of incrementally. The idea was that in games with drops 'initiative' is all important, and the side that has the initiative typically checks the opponent all the time (mostly through drops, and captures with the slider it just dropped when evasion was an interposition). The side that is in check will never evaluate, but extend for the evasion even at d=0. So the leaves typically have the side on move that has the initiative, and this player usually doesn't have to worry much about his own King Safety.

Xiangqi chasing rules indeed are very annoying; especially the fact that they are based on legal attacks and protects means that you have to search 3 ply ahead to judge them: one to play the attacks that are  chase candidates as a capture, then the possible pseudo-legal recaptures, and finally the potential King captures resulting from these. And you have to do that for every position in the repeat loop. Always for both sides, because they could be mutually chasing, and then it is a draw again.

It can be acceptable to only detect chases for repeats that have a certain minimum search depth left (say 4 ply).


Pushpawn Chess[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
M Winther wrote on Thu, Nov 26, 2020 03:02 PM UTC:

In Pushpawn Chess a connected pawn on the fourth or fifth rank can push back an enemy pawn that is placed before it, provided that the square behind the enemy pawn is empty. A Pawn that is situated adjacent to a friendly pawn, diagonally or horizontally, counts as “connected”. This is a serious challenger to Fide chess.

The pawn chain emulates a medieval shield wall. As the pawn is blocked by a shield, it cannot capture directly forwards. Instead, it captures diagonally forwards, which was a typical method, also in the roman army. But there is a move missing, namely a push move. In the ancient and medieval battle situation, soldiers tried to push the enemy shield wall back, to create a breach. The new push move emulates this ancient tactics.

Pushpawn Chess (Zillions)


ChessVA computer program
. Program for playing numerous Chess variants against your PC.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Robert Mate wrote on Thu, Nov 26, 2020 03:48 PM UTC:

Ok I went back and checked on the castling using only the ChessV engine with default settings with me as white. I've been playing mostly standard, gothic, and omega. Of three quick openings/midgames, Omega alone castled. What seems to happen is that the engine will push pawns away from a potential castle position before it gets the chance to castle into it.

On a different note, I tried to get P2P.exe (http://hgm.nubati.net/p2p.html) to work with this to play over the internet, but through no fault of either programmer, it won't work. This is because when you bring up the engine settings there should be a specialized window, but in ChessV there is always the same variation, weakening, etc. I only bring this up bcs there might be an easy fix ;)


📝Greg Strong wrote on Thu, Nov 26, 2020 07:12 PM UTC in reply to Robert Mate from 03:48 PM:

Ok I went back and checked on the castling using only the ChessV engine with default settings with me as white. I've been playing mostly standard, gothic, and omega. Of three quick openings/midgames, Omega alone castled. What seems to happen is that the engine will push pawns away from a potential castle position before it gets the chance to castle into it.

Yes, I did some testing and I see what you mean.  It has no particularly strong desire to castle, so I'm increasing the castling bonus.  I'm also increasing the length of the opening phase.  The development evaluation bonuses/penalties "fade out" as the game progresses.  (By the endgame, it doesn't matter if you've castled or not.)  So some games it just doesn't get around to castling before the bonus is no longer applied.  And maybe this is right - maybe sometimes there are more urgent things going on.

On a different note, I tried to get P2P.exe (http://hgm.nubati.net/p2p.html) to work with this to play over the internet, but through no fault of either programmer, it won't work. This is because when you bring up the engine settings there should be a specialized window, but in ChessV there is always the same variation, weakening, etc. I only bring this up bcs there might be an easy fix ;)

Interesting.  I'm not surprised this doesn't work, although I don't know of any specific reason why it shouldn't.  The ChessV GUI doesn't support everything in the xboard protocol and there could be bugs with that which is implemented.  I may dig into this at some point, but there are other things needing attention more urgently.  At some point, ChessV should just have the ability to play matches across the internet on its own.


📝Greg Strong wrote on Thu, Nov 26, 2020 07:17 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 10:19 AM:

I found the following search scheme to work quite well in games with drops: you distingush check-drops from other drops, and make a special move generator to selectively generate those (by generating retro moves for all piece types, starting from the King). At d=1 the only drops searched are the check drops; at d>=2 LMR reduces non-captures by 1 ply, and (non-check) drops by 2 ply.

Well, that sounds pretty easy.  What about QSearch?  I assume it just doesn't consider drops at all?

In CrazyWa I used a King Safety evaluation that seemed to work quite well generically across many drop variants. It was kind of unusual by being asymmetric. It awardeds a bonus to the side to move which is the product of the hand value and the number of squares attacked next to the enemy King (the possible drop locations). The latter could be cheaply calculated as side effect of the move generation, while the hand value can be kept track of incrementally. The idea was that in games with drops 'initiative' is all important, and the side that has the initiative typically checks the opponent all the time (mostly through drops, and captures with the slider it just dropped when evasion was an interposition). The side that is in check will never evaluate, but extend for the evasion even at d=0. So the leaves typically have the side on move that has the initiative, and this player usually doesn't have to worry much about his own King Safety.

This also makes sense.  I'll make a note of this.

Xiangqi chasing rules indeed are very annoying; especially the fact that they are based on legal attacks and protects means that you have to search 3 ply ahead to judge them: one to play the attacks that are  chase candidates as a capture, then the possible pseudo-legal recaptures, and finally the potential King captures resulting from these. And you have to do that for every position in the repeat loop. Always for both sides, because they could be mutually chasing, and then it is a draw again.

That is really painful.  I wonder if it is possible to collect this information incrementally during the search rather than searching deeper to determine?


H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, Nov 26, 2020 08:54 PM UTC in reply to Greg Strong from 07:17 PM:

What about QSearch? I assume it just doesn't consider drops at all?

Indeed. I never managed to get a non-exploding QSearch that searched captures plus drops, even when I limited it to safe check drops. Even an extension for check evasions can be dangerous in QS. At least, if you allow drops as evasions. (I forgot to mention that: when in check at d=1, it is of course pointless to try check drops, and I try drop evasions instead, to prevent seeing false checkmates.) The problem is that the drop evasions can add captured pieces back to the board for the side that is being checked, and if the players alternately check each other this can go on indefinitely. (I never saw that problem in my Shogi engines, but in Crazyhouse it did happen.) So it is probably safest to ignore checks beyond a certain QS depth, or limit the number of checks, or limit checking to one player only. Very powerful pieces can cause problems with search explosion in QS anyway.

That is really painful.  I wonder if it is possible to collect this information incrementally during the search rather than searching deeper to determine?

That is hard because of alpha-beta pruning, which might prevent the relevant moves from being searched. And you wouldn't want to do anything extra on the off chance that the current position might later run into a repetition; repetitions are not all that numerous in the tree.

As to castling: In Joker I had the problem that the castling bonus was so large that it could give rise to "positional horizon effect": it started to sacrifice material just to push the castling over the horizon. Which, predictably, only brought temporary relief for a permanent sacrifice. So in KingSlayer I make the associated King Safety bonus available in small steps. Clearing the path for castling to a location with a good Pawn shield already gives you part of the bonus for that shield. Or, in other words, the value of the castling right is a fraction of the bonus,and the more pieces are still in the way, the smaller the multiplier gets. And the availability of a second castling right gets added for 1/8 to that for the primary one. The Pawn-shield bonuses for all 4 locations are stored in the Pawn hash table, and also depends on the opponent having half-open files aimed at your shield.


Game Courier Logs. View the logs of games played on Game Courier.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Fri, Nov 27, 2020 06:28 AM UTC:

Can someone help us? We try to play Metamachy with Numerist, I have the black pieces. When I click on one of the 4 which are in the center of the board, it activates (with a framed square) the 4 squares in the center of my lines, but how to move the piece in those squares? I've tried to click, to hold and drop the piece, nothing works. I've tried with Safari and with Firefox. Am I doing something wrong? Thank you


Apothecary Chess Tournament[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Aurelian Florea wrote on Fri, Nov 27, 2020 11:01 AM UTC:

I have tested the final presets for apothecary chess. They have shown no more trouble. I was wondering if people will be interested in an apothecary chess tournament. Here are the preliminary rules should it happen.

  1. Each round a player plays a game of apothecary chess-classic and apothecary chess modern
  2. In order to avoid bye, myself will play only if the number of players is odd
  3. The tournament is a double round robin if there are 4 players, a single round robin if there are 6 or 8 players. A swiss system with 6 rounds if there are 10 or more players.
  4. Should the tournament be a swiss system the pairings in round one will be random
  5. Remember that there is a possibility that a game has finished 0.75-0.25. This will be used in rankings
  6. Time controls are 1 move/day
  7. There are no prices except for the honor of winning the tournament!

Edit : Please express interest by commenting in this post.


Game Courier Logs. View the logs of games played on Game Courier.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Fri, Nov 27, 2020 06:01 PM UTC:

Nobody can't help?


Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Fri, Nov 27, 2020 06:02 PM UTC:

Nobody can't help?


Apothecary Chess Tournament[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Erik Lerouge wrote on Fri, Nov 27, 2020 08:10 PM UTC:

Hello, I'm interested to participate in this tournament.


Game Courier Logs. View the logs of games played on Game Courier.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Erik Lerouge wrote on Fri, Nov 27, 2020 08:37 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from 06:02 PM:

Hello, Having tried the Metamachy preset with a personal invitation to myself, when I click "... to move" for the first move, I have the message "The invitation to play this game hasn't been accepted yet." and it is impossible to do a move, even after going back to the menu and returning to the game log. Is it that? Maybe you can try to send an open invitation, that your opponent could accept. I seem to remember that there could have been issues with personal invitations in GC.


Apothecary Chess Tournament[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Daniel Zacharias wrote on Fri, Nov 27, 2020 08:49 PM UTC in reply to Aurelian Florea from 11:01 AM:

I'm interested too


Archchess. Large chess variant from 17th century Italy. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Daniel Zacharias wrote on Fri, Nov 27, 2020 09:04 PM UTC:

the rook moves one or more squares towards the original position of the king; the king moves one or more squares towards the original position of the king.

Shouldn't the last word there be "rook"?


Veteran Chess. Most pieces can or must irreversibly promote when they capture.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Greg Strong wrote on Sat, Nov 28, 2020 01:12 AM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Sun Nov 22 05:25 PM:
An alternative would be to make PxP a special case, in which no promotion can take place. Other pieces capturing a P could still promote, as could a P capturing another piece.

I tried modifying ChessV to play with this alteration and the results definitely look better. Before, the players would glob up in the center but both sides would try hard not to capture anything. This version still seems to have some significant moving about before captures start, but then play looks pretty normal. (I haven't studied the games in any detail.)

Here's a typical ChessV self-play game with the new restriction. Game runs for 84 moves before white mates. The first capture is on move 18.

e2e4 e7e5 g1f3 b8c6 b1c3 d7d6 f1b5 c8d7 d2d3 f7f5 e1g1 d8e7 a2a4 e8c8 a1a3 g8f6 d1d2 c6d4 b5c4 c7c5 b2b3 d7c6 f1e1 c8d7 c1b2 g7g6 a4a5 d8a8 h2h4 a8d8 g1h1 e7e6 f3g5 d6d5 g5e6 d4e6 c3d5 c6d5 b2e5 d5c4 e5f6 c4a6 f6h8 f8e7 h8e5 e7h4 d2e3 h7h5 a3a4 d8f8 d3d4 h4g5 g2g3 g5h6 f2f4 f8c8 d4c5 c8c5 a4a2 c5c8 e1d1 d7e7 d1d6 a6b5 d6e6 e7e6 c2c4 b5c6 a2e2 c8d8 h1h2 h6f8 e3d4 a7a6 e5h8 d8d4 e4f5 e6f5 h8d4 f8b4 e2e5 f5g4 d4b6 g4f3 e5e3 f3g4 e3e6 g4f5 e6e5 f5f6 b6d8 f6f7 h2h3 c6f3 h3h4 f3d1 c4c5 d1g4 e5e7 f7f8 e7b7 b4c5 b3b4 c5d4 h4g5 g4f5 d8b6 d4c3 b6c5 f8g8 b7b6 c3e1 g5h4 e1c3 b6a6 f5d3 a6e6 d3f5 e6e5 g8g7 h4g5 f5c2 e5e7 g7g8 a5a6 c3h8 e7e8 g8h7 c5d6 h8g7 d6e5 g7e5 f4e5 c2d3 e8e7 h7g8 a6a7 g8f8 g5f6 d3e4 e5e6 f8g8 e7g7 g8h8 g7g6 h8h7 g6g7 h7h8 g7g5 e4c2 g5h5 h8g8 e6e7 c2b3 g3g4 b3a2 h5g5 g8h8 e7f7 a2b1 g5h5 b1h7 f7g7 h8g8 g4g5 h7b1 h5h8

You can download as a ChessV saved game file here. The include file to make ChessV play with these rules is here.


Apothecary Chess Tournament[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Zhedric Meneses wrote on Sat, Nov 28, 2020 02:32 AM UTC in reply to Aurelian Florea from Fri Nov 27 11:01 AM:

I just saw the variants and wow they're interesting

I would love to join the tournament but I sadly won't because of school

I will instead say Good Luck to the tourneys


Aurelian Florea wrote on Sat, Nov 28, 2020 03:03 AM UTC in reply to Zhedric Meneses from 02:32 AM:

Thank you Zhedric!


About Game Courier. Web-based system for playing many different variants by email or in real-time.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Sat, Nov 28, 2020 08:04 AM UTC:

We try to play Metamachy on Game Courier. I have blacks. I can't find how to move a piece to the central squares of my lines and then start the game. Is that preset bugging? Or are we missing something? Please help us to understand. Thanks a lot


🕸💡📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Sat, Nov 28, 2020 05:37 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from 08:04 AM:

We try to play Metamachy on Game Courier. I have blacks. I can't find how to move a piece to the central squares of my lines and then start the game. Is that preset bugging? Or are we missing something? Please help us to understand. Thanks a lot

In investigating your game, it turns out that your opponent has not yet accepted the invitation. No player can start to move in any game until the invitation to play has been accepted. Things are confusing, because it doesn't make that clear in View mode.

I have now adjusted Game Courier to use form_accept.php instead of form_view.php whenever the invitation to play has not yet been accepted, and I have updated how the form_accept.php script works when the intended opponent is not logged in.


Viking Chess Set. Game board and pieces in search of rules. (Cells: 37) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
📝Michael Ireland wrote on Sat, Nov 28, 2020 06:04 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
New information on this thread: Another copy of this chess set has been found in an online posting on Board Game Geek!  Follow this link and scroll down to see the photo and comments: https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/276021/item/7825120#item7825120

Sadly this set is also missing the rules!  But I am attaching my most recent ruminations on what the rules were when I played the game in my youth :-)

Viking Chess Rules as best as they can be remembered – November 28, 2020

The goal of the game is to checkmate your opponent's king as in regular chess. 

Board: The board is made up of "rings" linking "crosses" (the spaces).  There is a centre space, the “star”, in the middle. 

Pieces: There is a king, 2 rooks (flat tops), 2 bishops (spikes) and 4 pawns per side.

All pieces start off the board.  

On their first turn (white goes first) each player places their king anywhere on the board on any space except the centre space (I believe that no piece could start on the centre star because it gives too much of an advantage to start there - but I am not 100% certain of the rule). 
In the second and subsequent turns, each player can either move an existing piece on the board or bring another piece onto the board as per turn 1.  

Different pieces move differently as follows:
-	Pawn moves one space in any direction 
-	Rook moves up to 3 spaces up or down, or one space to the side
-	Bishop moves up to 3 spaces around one of the rings, or one space up or down. 
-	King can move up to 3 spaces in any direction up or down

Once placed on the board a piece can enter the centre space or through it.

A player takes an opponent's piece by moving a piece into their opponent's piece's space.  Once a piece is removed from the board it cannot return.  I do not believe there is a rule to promote a pawn to a Bishop or Rook.

The King is the strongest piece on the board combining both the Rook's move (3 up or down) and the Bishop's move (3 around a ring in either direction). 

If the King is taken/mated the game is over.

Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Sat, Nov 28, 2020 06:44 PM UTC:

Very interesting. I see no mention of it in Pritchard's Encyclopedias. It has nothing to do with Byzantine chess which was played on the spaces, not on the intersections. The closest similar game I know is Circum Morum or Jabberwocky chess invented by V.R.Parton in 1961. But this one was more complex with 5 concentric circles and 61 positions. Maybe your game has been inspired by Parton's one.


About Game Courier. Web-based system for playing many different variants by email or in real-time.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
🕸💡📝Fergus Duniho wrote on Sun, Nov 29, 2020 01:04 AM UTC in reply to Daniel Zacharias from Sat Nov 21 10:53 PM:

Sorry if this isn't the best place to put this.

The best place would be on the page for the preset you are having a problem with. That way, an email could have been sent to the programmer. Since you did not do that, I emailed him for you. Hopefully, he will fix the bug.


Apothecary Chess Tournament[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Aurelian Florea wrote on Sun, Nov 29, 2020 05:08 AM UTC:

Anyone else?


About Game Courier. Web-based system for playing many different variants by email or in real-time.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Sun, Nov 29, 2020 12:26 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

Thank you Fergus, you spotted our problem right!


Viking Chess Set. Game board and pieces in search of rules. (Cells: 37) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
📝Michael Ireland wrote on Sun, Nov 29, 2020 03:15 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from Sat Nov 28 06:44 PM:Good ★★★★

Thank you for pointing that out. I have now reviewed Pritchard's encyclopedia myself and agree there is a resemblance to Jabberwocky chess, but with fewer circles and no Queen (the King becoming the most powerful moving piece). I think we are getting closer to the origin story here of this board.

Arne Basse, from what I understand was a furniture designer, not known for chess boards. But he or whoever came up with this game could have been influenced by Parton. The timing would have been right as the board was produced in 1966. I wish there was a way to find out more about whether there is an archive of his designs somewhere, presumably in Denmark.


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