Comments/Ratings for a Single Item
I have added two new sets of similar games. These involve some of my games. One set is Storm the Ivory Tower and Yáng Qí. They are no more similar than almost any two Chess variants, but they are both based on Chinese Chess and were created by the same inventor. When I was voting, I was feeling that although I would like either game in the tournament, I didn't really feel the need to have both in the tournament. In particular, I really want Storm the Ivory Tower in the tournament, and I would want Yáng Qí in only if Storm the Ivory Tower didn't make it. The other set is Crazyhouse and Shatranji. Both are similar to but better than Chessgi, but overall, I think Shatranji is the superior game, because the less powerful pieces of Shatranj are better suited to a game with drops than the more powerful pieces of Chess are. I will also recommend rejoining Great Shatranj and Grand Shatranj into one group, and adding Modern Shatranj to the Mir Chess group. I would be interested in having either Great or Grand Shatranj in the tournament but don't feel much need to include both. I think the chance of one making it into the tournament is better if they are grouped together. Likewise, Modern Shatranj seems to have much the same appeal as Mir Chess. But I will let their inventors weigh in on this before making these changes.
Whether we say Alice Chess is in second or third place is going to make no difference to how MAM operates, because it does not make any use of absolute ordinal values. What it compares are individual pairs of candidates. For each pair of candidates, it notes which one has more frequently been ranked above the other. From this it creates a list of majorities. A majority is an ordered pair of candidates, which includes information on how many voters favored each candidate. If there are no cycles in the list of majorities, then it establishes the final ranking of the candidates, and the top ranked candidate is the condorcet winner. When there are cycles in the list, such as (A, B), (B, C), and (C, A), it derives a subset of the majorities that are consistent with each other, and it uses this subset to establish the final ranking. It does this by sorting them, then it goes down the list affirming each pair that is consistent with all previously affirmed pairs, and affirming additional pairs that can be logically derived from sets of previously affirmed pairs. By this method, it maximizes the number of affirmed majorities, hence the name of the method. The sorting function compares two majorities only with each other, and when they are equal to each other in all relevant ways, it sorts them according to the results of the strict tie-break ranking, which is previously established by randomly picking ballots until enough preferences are collected to establish a strict ordering of the candidates. The order in which the majorities go will make a difference only when there are cycles in the list. When there are no cycles, all majorities will be affirmed. In general, placing Alice Chess below both versions of Mir Chess should no more hurt Alice Chess's chance than placing it below only one game would. If both versions of Mir Chess come out ahead of Alice Chess, one will be thrown out, and everything below it will be pulled up in the rankings. When there are cycles in the votes, this will have no effect on the ordering of most of the majorities involving Alice Chess. The main effect it will have will be on the ordering of the majority involving both Alice Chess and Mir Chess, and, if yours is the deciding vote, it will make it a majority for Mir Chess rather than Alice Chess. This will increase the chances of affirming the majority of Mir Chess over Alice Chess.
You have answered my questions well and in the process given what I believe is a good explanation of the basics of the Condorcet method. For this I thank you. Your explanations and my followups have given me good reason to believe that the method is all you say it is. Its flaws you have not hidden or minimized; I see them as two. One is the random nature of a tiebreak, although that is a lesser flaw than many other methods. The other is that it gives the least objectionable results which is something different than most elections, and I can live with this too. So I leave you with one comment. The method you use is certainly appropriate for its purpose and has many nice features. I think those who followed this thread will generally agree that it is a worthy method and will be happy to see it used in the future. Many might wish you had stuck with the original configuration of the method for this tournament's second round of voting. This is the one area where I still have substantial disagreement with your decisions. My purpose was not to harrass or exasperate you, but to gain what I could for all involved and to register disapproval of those things I believed were wrong without creating any personal animosity. By maintaining anonymity I hope I have achieved the latter. I oppose the creation of factions and do not like what I have seen of flame wars regardless of provocation. I hope I have been reasonably cordial generally; enough so that you did not feel that attacks were directed at you personally rather than some of your actions and decisions. For those times I have gone across the line, I apologize. While I still disagree with some of your decisions I believe it is time to leave and allow the individuals involved or possibly the voting body to continue this argument if they so desire. You have been an honorable if unpredictable and somewhat inconsistant and arbitrary opponent but that is often the nature of genius. I am certainly not all I wish to be, not that I claim to be anything special. Your involvement in the creation and maintenance of this site is something special. I look forward to meeting you over a chessboard in the future. Goodbye.
In regard to Switching Chess, if played in the tournament will it be up to the players (of their specific game)to determine which switching rules apply? For example: 1. King in Check can switch 2. King in Check Cannot Switch 3. Pinned piece (pinned to King) can switch 4. Pinned piece (pinned to King) cannot switch Thank you
[Modern Shatranj] is my second choice. Joe took the opposite design course of starting with Shatranj and moving forward. All things considered, I am willing to go along with the proposal by Fergus to group this game with my Mir Chess variants.
[Mir Chess 36] is my third choice - originally an attempt to squeeze most of the Shako pieces onto an 8x8 board.
[Shako] therefore becomes my fourth choice. Judging by the latest poll results, Shako may well be the only one of these four games to make it into the tournament. While I still have some misgivings about playing with short range pieces like elephants on a 10x10 board, I also believe that it would be an interesting game to play.
Hi Jeremy! Please call me-I am offline, and your phone # is not working. I am at (813) 654-4165. If anyone else has a way to reach Jeremy, please pass this message on to him. Or if anyone wants to contact me about any of my Variants, leave a message w/ name and #. If i am home, i will answer, otherwise i will call back. Eric V. Greenwood P.S. thanks to my friend Chris for allowing me to get this message out! :)
21 comments displayed
Permalink to the exact comments currently displayed.
I have the general background to understand and agree with what Mr. Good is saying, but I do not have the math to demonstrate the truth (or falsity, if that should be the case) of the argument. In words, it would be this: the conditions for voting have changed between the first and second ballots.
Specifically, ten games compete not only against all the other games, but also have a 'to the death' competiton with another member of the ten. By changing the conditions under which some but not all of the games are judged, there is an unavoidable bias introduced. A subset of the whole is being judged by different and more stringent standards. Thus the playing field is no longer level. The only question becomes how the two different groups are affected. I believe it is apparent that the result is to lessen the chances of the ten relative to the other games.
I am forced to predict that a lesser percentage of the singled out games will get into tournaments under these conditions. But this again may be misleading, because a closer examination of the ten shows some of them both represented and voted on in the first poll, CC/CRC and FC/FC100, and some that were represented by a single entry which was then split into two, GrandSD/GrandSR, GreatSD/GreatSR, and Mir36/Mir32. This also must skew the results. I believe I must predict that the seven initial entries that became ten will be underrepresented statistically, although one contest does not give an adequate sample.
On the specific question of Mir36 and Mir32, if there were no Mir36 in the tournament, I would put Mir32 in the exact place that I will put Mir36. However, because there are two Mirs in the tournament, one of them must be rated above the other, unless there are provisions for giving 2 different games the exact same rating. I cannot help but believe the lower-rated Mir has lost a little. Am I actually wrong in believing this?