Comments by nargott
Yes, the Pawns are the most dangerous because they are very complex and progressive units, especially with pawn's chains in any different forms.
But I can't configure Fairy-Max to play this variant because of problems with configure linear-leaps (unicorn/werewolf, wyvern/hunter). It has very strange instructions and unclear mechanics of configuring complex moves, even for a programmer.
For example, if I put a move like 15,FFFF070 (-16) then a piece can move from g8 through f7 to e7. If put 15,1070 (+1) then a piece can move from g8 through f7 to... d6. But any other tries with -1 and +16 do nothing. I need help for it.
Do you know any online chess service supporting illegal moves (free moves by agreement between the players themselves)? It would be the best for playing many non-classic variants without any programming (no AI analysis, no AI player, no AI tips - but the natural, origin wood form of a chess doesn't have these options too).
to Greg Strong
Hi Gregory!
Thanks for the feedback.
The blink is added only to the Phoenix (Archbishop) not the Hunters (Bishops).
Adding the blink wasn't a simple decision, but at the current moment I think it is necessary (and is a minimal fee for the balance). A Phoenix without the blink (classical Archbishop) has an estimated value 8.2 (instead of 10.6), a half pawn less than a Dragon (Chancellor). And a Fairy promoting to non-blinking Phoenix has an estimated value 1.25 (instead of 1.33). Summary a blink removing makes elves 3.0 classical pawns weaker. It will be wonderful if such elves with so much estimating weakness will be balanced. But now I believe to these estimatings more than to a wonderful equality.
As an alternative variant without the blink, there is possible to buff the Pegasus, from 2 up to 3 range (leaping) but this is controversial and gives more advantages to elves (according to my estimates extended Pegasus has value of 4.9 instead of 3.1)
to H. G. Muller
Thanks you for your program and advices!
I put this variant and it works but I need to configure pieces' images: elvish (black in this case, and white for future presets) bishop and knight must exchange their starting places.
I use classic preset (images), but maybe it's better to draw alt. queens as chancellor and archbishop, but I don't know how to configure it.
// Asymmetric Chess (Orc-Elf)
Game: normal # PNBRQ.........Kpnbrq.........k
8x8
6 4 5 7 3 5 4 6
8 11 10 9 3 10 11 8
p:125 -16,24 -16,7 -1,5 1,5
p:130 15,24 17,24 15,7 17,7
K:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
N:430 1,043,-15 1,043,17 16,043,17 16,043,15 -1,043,15 -1,043,-17 -16,043,-17 -16,043,-15
B:280 17,7 15,7 -17,7 -15,7 34,7 30,7 -34,7 -30,7
R:450 2,3,1 32,3,16 -2,3,-1 -32,3,-16
Q:860 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
R:310 1,7 16,7 -1,7 -16,7 2,7 32,7 -2,7 -32,7
Q:1060 15,103 17,103 -15,103 -17,103 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
N:440 17,043,1 17,043,16 15,043,16 15,043,-1 -17,043,-1 -17,043,-16 -15,043,-16 -15,043,1
B:280 34,3,17 30,3,15 -34,3,-17 -30,3,-15
Update: randomly get exchanging of the black knight and bishop, but how to get chancellor and archbishop images, it's a riddle...
To H. G. Muller:
Alternative Knights are not lame Knights! They have up to all 12 squares to moves, like a linear piece (with a limited range up to 2). Regarding the rest, I will try it, thanks.
I tested the old configure and had found that:
1) Blink-Phoenix is terrible! Elf vs Human defeats a pawn with 1.B:a7 (if the 1....R:a7 then 2.Qe3 with a diagonal a7-h8 attacking and capture one of the rooks). It need to be fixed and I'll remove this ability at the next update of the Asymmetric Chess.
2) AI is weak at the openings and is strongly influenced by the way played alternative pieces, maybe its a problem with my mistakes of configuring (upper case) or with starting arrangements or with some pieces/pawns' design.
3) The total results of the balance for now (with time-control of 1 minute per 40 turns):
Orc-Human 13:7
Elf-Human 8,5:11,5 (but 5:5 when the elf is white and capture a pawn with 1.B:a7 and 3,5:6,5 when the elf is black)
Elf-Orc 9:11
4) The Wyvern seems undervalued and strong as soon as the Griffin (classic Rook) because of the starting activity
Maybe instead Phoenix' blinking I'll give to the Pegasus range of 1-3 (instead of 1-2), I'm testing for it. The old Pegasus has very big difference with a classic Rook in his power, because a classic Rook (Griffin) has sieged range (longer that long-range of bishop's diagonals). An average range of diagonal's direction is about 2,5, and an average range of orthogonal's direction is 4. That's why I think that 4+ distance is sieged range but a range of 3 isn't sieged. New Pegasus will be as strong as a Griffin (Rook) because of a great jumping ability.
P.S. Alterntative Knights (unicorn/werewolf) may be counted as lame knights + ferz/wazir.
I would update auto statistics at this post (with the new extended Pegasus instead of blink):
Orc vs Elf = 22,5 : 17,5
Orc vs Human = 21,5 : 18,5
Elf vs Human = 41 : 39
2 H. G. Muller:
Thank you. But there are some details.
The Hunter has the first part of moving (to range of 2) as a leaping, although continues his moving as a linear rider. In other words, he ia as classical Bishop but always skips (and ignores) the first square in each direction (at melee range of 1), like the Knight.
And the Wyvern has too.
The Pegasus is R3 but 100% leaper to all of his moves (can leap through up to 2 pieces). It gives him a great flexibility and makes him as stronger as the Rook.
If there some unclear details in the current rules (at the main post), please propose that such determinations would be clear to all. Maybe my current determinations are not clear now.
Sorry if it is inconvenient for the current notations: these types of moves were invented before I got to know this theory.
"If such a move would go to the square skipped over by the opponent Pawn on the preceding move, it could both be interpreted as a normal non-capture move or as an e.p. capture."
Hmm, its interesting. I think that this move has a capture's priority (always e.p. capture if possible). But there are some cases in which e.p.capture is put own king under a check - then moving to this square is not legal right now, even it is legal without e.p. capture.
And yes, there is a problem with e.p. capture in a Fairy-Max - the pawns may capture such a way any piece (not only pawns), even friendly, its a bug and later it is out of sync for engines :)
P.S. How I had found, the strongest configure for elvish AI is classical R and Q for a rook and queen, not centralized, as a standard rook and a queen.
And I want to make decision (when a blink was removed), where is the best starting place for elvish bishops (Hunters), on b/g or on c/f files?
If the Hunters stay on c/f (as classical) then:
1) there is the g7-vulnerability and in EvE matchup 1.Qc3 forces a reaction of gf6/ef6
2) the Hunters are less aggresive but more maneurable (for example, Bh3 or Bb5+ moves)
3) Bb5-type moves counter 1....d4/d5 openings in EvH because after Bb5+ there is only one way to protect the king - moving a bishop or a knight to d7 with unfavorable exchange; and also that moves counter df4/df5 openings in EvE
If the Hunters stay on b/g files then:
1) EvE, EvH matchup: 1.Ra4 (or h4) immdediately attacks a7 and forces a reaction; this is an ability to cancel own castling for an early agression (and I think that for Elves with mobile pawns the castling is not important as for other armies)
2) the Hunter are more aggresive but less maneurable
3) EvH matchup: Ra4/h4 openings are still relevant because of the threating to a5-a8 capturing a rook (Griffin). And a possible reaction is b6 or a5 (these moves save a7 pawn also)
This is important for the elvish knights (Unicorns) too.
If the Unicorns stay on b/g (as classical) then:
1) their activation is possible through Ñ2/f2 squares only, or as an alternative through a2/h2 but passive like Na3
If the Unicorns stay on c/f lines then:
1) their activation is possible through b2/g2 and d2/e2, more active variants
2 H. G. Muller
This is the illustration of how e.p. capture is broken (engine's bug):
1. d2-f4+ de3 (engine's move) but f4 pawn is still on the board and 2.f4:g5 is not legal because it is out of the sync.
If there is a black knight on the e4, it will disappear after that e.p. capture.
The white is the Elf and the black is the Elf or the Human on this diagram.
http://hgm.nubati.net/variants/orc-elf/
I like all of the new pieces' images except the phoenix (archbishop) and the centaurs. I think that archbishop may be like classical archbishop (but mirrored as chancellor) and the centaurs must be associated with bishops' classical images (as new hunters now). Because the centaur is a bishop variation, not an exotic piece with unique movement. And maybe the pegasus will be better as a "winged" rook, not sure. I think that the best idea is the nearest associations with classic pieces (werewolves/unicorns, fairies/guards, hunters, dragon are very nice).
H. G. Muller
Can you fix this problem with e.p. or it's very difficult (if WinBoard is your program)? In principle, it is not so terrible for automatic testing, simply replay some games. However, this interferes with the analysis and manual games.
On my part, I can simply:
- Make fairy leaping/laming the first move, but it is a buff (and an extra rule)
- Remove from the fairy possibility of double move, but it is a nerf and killing of game dynamics
The problem is that the elves are very equal balanced now. And it seems, now I understand why Spartan pawns have leaping first move :)
About pieces' images yes, I understand. But many other players do not know what is the elephant and why it is associated with a diagonal movement. And that's why I'm not sure which variant is better.
About the archbishop, if a piece has knightish moves but has not knightish image, it would deal "terrible damage", stunning any new players, because knightish moves are the most dangerous in the game and a player must be warned about this by the face of the horse :)
I had add the next rule about en passant capturing:
"For Elvish and Orcish Pawns en passant capturing has the first prioity, there is no possible to ignore en passant capturing with a simple moving to the square without capturing of this square​"
And how I see this is how the engine works now.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
Fairy = Stone General + pawn's basic mechanics (double move, e.p. capture, promotion)
Guard is unique
Unicorn = Ferz Knight without leaping
Werewolf = Wazir Knight without leaping
Hunter = Vanguard + leaping over adjacent squares
Centaur = Elephant (modern)
old Pegasus = Wazaba
Pegasus is unique
Wyvern is unique
Phoenix = Archbishop
Dragon = Chancellor
To H. G. Muller:
My opinions of the images are less important than the convenience of the players in any way. So if you sure maybe it's right.
About the Elephant, in my country the Bishop has name of the Elephant, but this is a word, not the image.
"The names you assigned to the pieces does not fit their moves very well. In mythology Pegasus is a winged horse, and you use it on a piece that has no Knight moves. Similarly, a Centaur is both horse-like and human-like, and you made it fight for the Orcs without Knight moves. Perhaps you should consider renaming Phoenix to Pegasus, Pegasus to Eagle and Centaur to Troll (and Guard to Goblin, as Trolls and Goblins are known accomplishes of Orcs.)"
In my opinions:
-Pawn-type is infantry
-Knight-type is cavalry
-Bishop-type is archers (but in fantasy subjects it's also casters)
-Rook-type is sieged (but in fantasy subjects it's a flyers)
So I had gave names with those types + race's themes. As for me, it is not a question of principle, if the most players agree with you, than change it. About the Guard, he was originally a Goblin, but the Goblin doesn't match to his defensive style, he is more Dwarf than Goblin (yes, this is a strange alliance).
The current Centaur and Pegasus are good associated with the classical knights not by moving types but by 100% leaping and limited range (originally they had the same range up to 2 squares - mid-range, but then the Pegasus was buffed to 3). That's why I had choose these names.
In terms of classic images, I like new images for the Hunter and the Wyvern, because (as for me) it's good associated with the blind zones that units have. But I like the Pegasus image too and so agree that it's very good for the Archbishop piece (it has a horse and the wings show that unit is mobile). This is the strong argue for renaming Phoenix to the Pegasus and I need to think about it.
Yes, but the Elves is only name, as fantasy theme is only image.
The main difference of this variant from the Chess with Different Armies is in 3 points:
1) all classic mechanics and types without any exotic moves
2) different pawns
3) new units/races are only for the asymmetrical balance, not for the new units/races (that's why it could never be 4+ races/armies if 3 is enough)
There is 100% guarantee that all non-king units are unique within this system, and all units in their types are not dominating each other (like extended knights with extra moves dominating classical knights at all aspects). There are simple rules limiting only classic mechanics. And these are very strong requirements or limitations for development, that's why the Asymmetric's Orcs and Elves armies can be included to Chess with Different Armies, but not vice versa.
In other words, this variant is detached subsystem of Chess with Different Armies, with strong limitations for classic rules and types.
2 George Duke:
These are other units, if you look closely. And when I sayed "unique", I add "within system", i.e. within these 3 races, with no repeating. For example, the Centaur is not unique outside the system, because is identical to the modern Elephant.
http://hgm.nubati.net/variants/orc-elf/ - you may see all these units how they work.
For example, the Wyvern is a rook always skipping and leaping over the adjacent square. It can't leap over the other squares, only over the adjacent square, then moves as linear. 100% leaping rook is the Pegasus but he is limited to range of 3.
One question, are the point values equal to 31 as they need to be? That leads to the Pawns.
All armies are equals each other, if you summarize (equals to 41 with pawns and without kings). 31 is the only estimated number of which depends on the accuracy of the estimate.
These estimatings are mine, and I can mistake at some of them. But totally, the engine shows that all armies are equal very much (in long series of games).
I'm thinking about changing names of the units:
Centaur -> Shaman (Bishop-2 leaping); he is a "spellcaster" like a Monk - classic Bishop
Phoenix -> Pegasus (Knight + Bishop)
Pegasus -> Phoenix (Rook-3 leaping)
What about this variant?
But in my opinion, the Phoenix is associated with much power than the Pegasus; and the Centaur (archer) is more warlike than the Shaman.
The logic of the old names was:
- The Pegasus (jR3) is leaper like the Knight, but is flyer/orthogonal like the Griffin/Rook
- The Centaur (jB2) is leaper like the Knight, but is archer/diagonal like the Hunter
- The Phoenix (Elvish Queen = BN) is simply a supreme, divine creature for the elves, like the Angel for Humans or the Dragon for Orcs
Are Guard, Pegasus, and Wyvern unique as claimed? Pegasus. Let's find out in follow-up.
Oh, I remember that:
Guard = Dog in the Space Chess (by Alex Erohno), but this piece is not famous in the Wiki.
The Dog can promote only to light units and can e.p. capture only other Dogs (because of equality with the classic pawn). But the Guard has standard promotion and standard e.p. capturing, because the asymmetry is not equality one to one.
I had updated my estimatings in the main post, with better accuracy, and added the "Unit's comparrison" article.
King: Hero = 2.7
HUMANS
Pawn: Footman = 1.0
Knight: Knight = 3.25
Bishop: Monk = 3.6
Rook: Griffin = 5.0
Queen: Angel = 9.6
ELVES
Pawn: Fairy = 1.2
Knight: Unicorn = 4.25 (heavy)
Bishop: Hunter = 2.8
Rook: Pegasus = 4.75
Queen: Phoenix = 8.1
ORCS
Pawn: Guard = 1.25
Knight: Werewolf = 4.2
Bishop: Centaur = 2.75
Rook: Wyvern = 4.5
Queen: Dragon = 8.4
To H. G. Muller
If we prefer the Pegasus as Elvish Queen then it will be clear inconsistency with the Angel and the Dragon and they also will be removed (but they are very strong fantasy figures). But the Phoenix by many sources is equal to that figures or sometimes even higher.
I think that we can save all the old names because this is not important for 99% players. For example, there is possible to be embarrassed that an elephant/bishop playfully runs along the diagonals through all the board, but because of this, very few people stopped playing classical chess.
About images, my opinion:
Dragon = Chancellor = Knight-Rook chimera (standard, don't change).
Phoenix = Archbishop = Pair of the swords (modern standard, don't change).
Hunter, Centaur = Bishop-types.
Pegasus, Wyvern = Rook-types.
Unicorn, Werewolf, Fairy, Guard = good like now, don't change.
About e.p. capturing, I think that there are 2 main criteria:
1) orthodox pawn could be correct
2) diagonal pawn could be correct (the current problem)
Everything else is unimportant because is extremally rare (and you may slow the engine for nonexistent pawns).
The only problem is that e.p. rights will not always be properly taken into account when comparing positions for the purpose of determining 3-fold-repetition draws.
It's not important for the most players, if this is no online-tournament engine.
Thank you for supporting new chess variants. Are you interested in programming the online-engine of lichess for this variant? I don't know how difficult is it.
To H. G. Muller:
http://hgm.nubati.net/variants/orc-elf/
Can you put all 9 match-ups for this variant into your online service?
There is all match-ups for Fairy-Max:
// Asymmetric Chess (Orc-Orc)
Game: fairy/Orc-Orc # P..R........NB..Q....Kp..r........nb..q....k
8x8
6 4 5 7 3 5 4 6
8 10 11 9 3 11 10 8
p:125 -16,24 -16,7 -1,5 1,5
p:125 16,24 16,7 -1,5 1,5
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:420 1,043,-15 1,070,17 16,043,17 16,070,15 -1,043,15 -1,070,-17 -16,043,-17 -16,070,-15
b:275 17,7 15,7 -17,7 -15,7 34,7 30,7 -34,7 -30,7
R:450 2,3,1 32,3,16 -2,3,-1 -32,3,-16
Q:840 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
R:450 2,3,1 32,3,16 -2,3,-1 -32,3,-16
Q:840 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
n:420 1,043,-15 1,070,17 16,043,17 16,070,15 -1,043,15 -1,070,-17 -16,043,-17 -16,070,-15
b:275 17,7 15,7 -17,7 -15,7 34,7 30,7 -34,7 -30,7
# P fWscWifmnD
# p fWscWifmnD
# N WafsW
# n WafsW
# B FA
# b FA
# R yafWgafW
# r yafWgafW
# Q RN
# q RN
// Asymmetric Chess (Human-Human)
Game: fairy/Human-Human # PNBRQ.........Kpnbrq.........k
8x8
6 4 5 7 3 5 4 6
8 10 11 9 3 11 10 8
p:100 -16,24 -16,6 -15,5 -17,5
p:100 16,24 16,6 15,5 17,5
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:325 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:360 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:500 16,3 -16,3 -1,3 1,3
Q:960 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:500 16,3 -16,3 -1,3 1,3
Q:960 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
n:325 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:360 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
# P fmWfcFifmnD
# p fmWfcFifmnD
# N N
# n N
# B B
# b B
# R R
# r R
# Q RB
# q RB
// Asymmetric Chess (Elf-Elf)
Game: fairy/Elf-Elf # ..B....Q......R...P.NK..b....q......r...p.nk
8x8
6 5 4 7 3 4 5 6
8 11 10 9 3 10 11 8
p:120 -15,24 -17,24 -15,7 -17,7
p:120 15,24 17,24 15,7 17,7
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:425 17,043,1 17,070,16 15,043,16 15,070,-1 -17,043,-1 -17,070,-16 -15,043,-16 -15,070,1
b:280 34,3,17 30,3,15 -34,3,-17 -30,3,-15
R:475 1,7 16,7 -1,7 -16,7 2,7 32,7 -2,7 -32,7 3,7 48,7 -3,7 -48,7
Q:810 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
R:475 1,7 16,7 -1,7 -16,7 2,7 32,7 -2,7 -32,7 3,7 48,7 -3,7 -48,7
Q:810 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
n:425 17,043,1 17,070,16 15,043,16 15,070,-1 -17,043,-1 -17,070,-16 -15,043,-16 -15,070,1
b:280 34,3,17 30,3,15 -34,3,-17 -30,3,-15
# P fFifmnA
# p fFifmnA
# N FafsF
# n FafsF
# B yafFgafF
# b yafFgafF
# R WDH
# r WDH
# Q BN
# q BN
// Asymmetric Chess (Elf-Human)
Game: fairy/Elf-Human # ..B....Q......R...P.NKpnbrq................k
8x8
6 5 4 7 3 4 5 6
8 10 11 9 3 11 10 8
p:120 -15,24 -17,24 -15,7 -17,7
p:100 16,24 16,6 15,5 17,5
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:425 17,043,1 17,070,16 15,043,16 15,070,-1 -17,043,-1 -17,070,-16 -15,043,-16 -15,070,1
b:280 34,3,17 30,3,15 -34,3,-17 -30,3,-15
R:475 1,7 16,7 -1,7 -16,7 2,7 32,7 -2,7 -32,7 3,7 48,7 -3,7 -48,7
Q:810 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
R:500 16,3 -16,3 -1,3 1,3
Q:960 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
n:325 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:360 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
# P fFifmnA
# p fmWfcFifmnD
# N FafsF
# n N
# B yafFgafF
# b B
# R WDH
# r R
# Q BN
# q RB
// Asymmetric Chess (Human-Elf)
Game: fairy/Human-Elf # PNBRQ................K..b....q......r...p.nk
8x8
6 4 5 7 3 5 4 6
8 11 10 9 3 10 11 8
p:100 -16,24 -16,6 -15,5 -17,5
p:120 15,24 17,24 15,7 17,7
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:325 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:360 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:500 16,3 -16,3 -1,3 1,3
Q:960 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:475 1,7 16,7 -1,7 -16,7 2,7 32,7 -2,7 -32,7 3,7 48,7 -3,7 -48,7
Q:810 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
n:425 17,043,1 17,070,16 15,043,16 15,070,-1 -17,043,-1 -17,070,-16 -15,043,-16 -15,070,1
b:280 34,3,17 30,3,15 -34,3,-17 -30,3,-15
# P fmWfcFifmnD
# p fFifmnA
# N N
# n FafsF
# B B
# b yafFgafF
# R R
# r WDH
# Q RB
# q BN
// Asymmetric Chess (Human-Orc)
Game: fairy/Human-Orc # PNBRQ................Kp..r........nb..q....k
8x8
6 4 5 7 3 5 4 6
8 10 11 9 3 11 10 8
p:100 -16,24 -16,6 -15,5 -17,5
p:125 16,24 16,7 -1,5 1,5
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:325 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:360 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:500 16,3 -16,3 -1,3 1,3
Q:960 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:450 2,3,1 32,3,16 -2,3,-1 -32,3,-16
Q:840 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
n:420 1,043,-15 1,070,17 16,043,17 16,070,15 -1,043,15 -1,070,-17 -16,043,-17 -16,070,-15
b:275 17,7 15,7 -17,7 -15,7 34,7 30,7 -34,7 -30,7
# P fmWfcFifmnD
# p fWscWifmnD
# N N
# n WafsW
# B B
# b FA
# R R
# r yafWgafW
# Q RB
# q RN
// Asymmetric Chess (Orc-Human)
Game: fairy/Orc-Human # P..R........NB..Q....Kpnbrq................k
8x8
6 4 5 7 3 5 4 6
8 10 11 9 3 11 10 8
p:125 -16,24 -16,7 -1,5 1,5
p:100 16,24 16,6 15,5 17,5
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:420 1,043,-15 1,070,17 16,043,17 16,070,15 -1,043,15 -1,070,-17 -16,043,-17 -16,070,-15
b:275 17,7 15,7 -17,7 -15,7 34,7 30,7 -34,7 -30,7
R:450 2,3,1 32,3,16 -2,3,-1 -32,3,-16
Q:840 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
R:500 16,3 -16,3 -1,3 1,3
Q:960 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
n:325 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:360 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
# P fWscWifmnD
# p fmWfcFifmnD
# N WafsW
# n N
# B FA
# b B
# R yafWgafW
# r R
# Q RN
# q RB
// Asymmetric Chess (Elf-Orc)
Game: fairy/Elf-Orc # ..B....Q......R...P.NKp..r........nb..q....k
8x8
6 5 4 7 3 4 5 6
8 10 11 9 3 11 10 8
p:120 -15,24 -17,24 -15,7 -17,7
p:125 16,24 16,7 -1,5 1,5
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:425 17,043,1 17,070,16 15,043,16 15,070,-1 -17,043,-1 -17,070,-16 -15,043,-16 -15,070,1
b:280 34,3,17 30,3,15 -34,3,-17 -30,3,-15
R:475 1,7 16,7 -1,7 -16,7 2,7 32,7 -2,7 -32,7 3,7 48,7 -3,7 -48,7
Q:810 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
R:450 2,3,1 32,3,16 -2,3,-1 -32,3,-16
Q:840 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
n:420 1,043,-15 1,070,17 16,043,17 16,070,15 -1,043,15 -1,070,-17 -16,043,-17 -16,070,-15
b:275 17,7 15,7 -17,7 -15,7 34,7 30,7 -34,7 -30,7
# P fFifmnA
# p fWscWifmnD
# N FafsF
# n WafsW
# B yafFgafF
# b FA
# R WDH
# r yafWgafW
# Q BN
# q RN
// Asymmetric Chess (Orc-Elf)
Game: fairy/Orc-Elf # P..R........NB..Q....K..b....q......r...p.nk
8x8
6 4 5 7 3 5 4 6
8 11 10 9 3 10 11 8
p:125 -16,24 -16,7 -1,5 1,5
p:120 15,24 17,24 15,7 17,7
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:420 1,043,-15 1,070,17 16,043,17 16,070,15 -1,043,15 -1,070,-17 -16,043,-17 -16,070,-15
b:275 17,7 15,7 -17,7 -15,7 34,7 30,7 -34,7 -30,7
R:450 2,3,1 32,3,16 -2,3,-1 -32,3,-16
Q:840 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
R:475 1,7 16,7 -1,7 -16,7 2,7 32,7 -2,7 -32,7 3,7 48,7 -3,7 -48,7
Q:810 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
n:425 17,043,1 17,070,16 15,043,16 15,070,-1 -17,043,-1 -17,070,-16 -15,043,-16 -15,070,1
b:280 34,3,17 30,3,15 -34,3,-17 -30,3,-15
# P fWscWifmnD
# p fFifmnA
# N WafsW
# n FafsF
# B FA
# b yafFgafF
# R yafWgafW
# r WDH
# Q RN
# q BN
About Fairy-Max:
I have tested 200 games for each non-mirror match-up (100 white + 100 black) and have got this statistics:
Elf < Human 46,25%
Elf < Orc 40,25%
Human < Orc 38,25%
It seems to be: Orc > Human > Elf, but the game analysis indicates that Elf > Human > Orc at the openings. And it is logically, because Elves have more active Pawns and the Orcs have less. That's why the Elves and Humans must be initiative but they don't, prefer to passive openings. They don't get any advantages in space, and Orcs, after the opening without any problems, punish them for their passivity. The Orcs have equal statistics playing white and black, it only confirms their weakness in the openings (potential but not real in auto games).
And this is a problem (and the feature) of asymmetry, different sides mean different opening's speed. If we will skip openings playing passive style and our side have an advantage at openings, then we will lose this advantage.
Without strong openings I can't get an answer to the question: are the Orcs imba, or not?
I have tested games at the time control of 1 sec per turn because each game need to be manually shown and I have no time to watch a lot of games in a long time. The WinBoard have a serious bug to incorrectly counting the wins and loses in the match of the same engines. It may show 20-20-10, but really there was 30-10-10 (if manually watching the games).
For example of opening's advantages:
- Elves have active Bishops from the very beginning, such moves are available and not bad (vs Human): 1.e4 - Bf4!
- Elves have active Rooks from the very beginning, move like 1.Ra4 is available (vs Human), the Orcish Wyverns may also leaping there, but only the Pegasus' move is good (because creates a real threats of Rxa7 or Ra5 - Rxa8)
- Elvish Knights (Unicorns) are centralized and can quickly enter the game through the squares of e2 and d2 (although not quickly as Human Knights), but Orcish Knights need to free squares f1 and c1 first (need to starts with their Bishops).
- Elves don't need to activate their Bishops, they are already active! Elves even don't need to move them for castling, because even simple Kf1 and then, if necessary, Re1 (leaping over the King and the Bishop) do the same, but faster.
- Orcs have problems with their short Bishops, because Be3 or Bd3 may block central Pawns (much more important than f и Ñ after Human Knights moves Nf3 or Nc3).
- Elvish Pawns have many variants to enter the game, but Orcish Pawns lose all their defensive bonus when moving. Elves can checkmate Orcs at the first move: 1.g3?? Bxg3#
For example how quickly elves may evolve an initiative, the game vs Humans:
1.ec4 d5 (with favorable exchange: Footman is weaker than Fairy)
2.cd Qxd5
3.ce4 Qg5 (blocking Ne2 due to Qxg2)
4.Be3 Qg6
5.Qf3 Nd7
6.d5 Qd6
7.Ra4 b6
8.Be4 Rb8
9.Bc6+ Kd8
10.Rxa7 Ngf6
11.Ra8+ Rxa8
12.Bxa8 Bb7
13.c6 Bxa8
14.b7 Bb7
15.Qxb7+ Ke8
16.Qxd6 ed
17.Ne2 with a significant advantage
Or another variant:
10....Bb7
11.Rxb7 Rxb7
12.Ba4 Nc5
13.c6 Ra7
14.Bxc5 Qxc5
15.Ne2 Rxa4
16.b7 Nf6
17.Nd4 Qxc1+
18.Ke2 Qc4+
19.Kd1 Qd5
20.Nc6+ Ke8
21.Qxd5 Nxd5
22.c8Q Nf6
23.Nb5.
I don't check all variants, its a simple illustration of elvish style how it can be at the openings. You may see these variants:
first demo
second demo
What do you mean by "game analysis indicates"? The result of the game is an objective measure, but any reported score merely reflects what you put in, in terms of piece values.
An objective measure if the openings are right. Game analysis means that value indicated by game engine if switch to analysis mode. Maybe it's a problem of fast timing control but at the 10 minutes to 40 turns engine plays closed and passive openings too.
All pieces values summary are equals, scores differ because of the position advantage, activity or abilities to get material advantage, which are maximum for elves and minimum for orcs at the openings.
As I had read, the first 3 turns are "random" but this random can't be objective because players play openings to get an advantage and to use the strong abilities of their pieces. Openings like 1.c3, 2.d3 are not that openings which is actual.
There will be not important if all 3 races have equal opening's abilities, but they haven't.
Originally, I had think that such passive style means a bad design of new units, but when I had launch Human-Human mirror (or Orthodox chess), I saw the same style.
About saving results into the file - thanks, I will try it.
There is an example of auto game Human-Human at 10 minutes:
1.Nf3 d5 2.c3 c6 3.d3 Be6 4.Nd4 Bd7 5.Bf4 Qb6 6.Qb3 f6 7.Nf3 Na6.
Can white realize their tempo advantage playing this style? No. And elves and humans can't also (versus orcs).
I think that elves have advantage at openings, orcs - at midgames, and humans - at endgames. Both elves and humans can't get enough advantage from openings, but orcs get full advantage at midgame, because the engine is much stronger at midgame.
Maybe, adding openings base will fix this situtation, but it's not objective. I think the program shows that the maximum advantage of the Orcs is about 0.5 pawn (if all openings are passive), and only multiplayer statistics can get more detailed estimatings, including full value of the openings.
Maybe, it will be better, if the Fairy-Max will have not static, but dynamic evaluating of pieces, according the same criterias, that I use for balancing new units (you may read it at the end of main post). It is very experimental way, but if all weights are correct, an evaluation of positions will no depends on user's subjective values and mistakes. The basic idea is that the 60-80% of the piece's value is determined by its average attack/speed and can be pre-calculated at the beginning of game, but then add a positional part of values to each piece depending on it's current position, attacks and moves limiting by obstacles, activity (value of attacking squares), acceleration, agility and potential. There is no fact that it will work as universal, but if there is successful, it will be great.
Now, if any chess variant (with different armies) is imbalanced, there is no assurance that it is objective not only because of poor openings but because the engine makes decisions depending on evaluations of positions, which depend on the user's subjective values of his own pieces.If the user is wrong by his values, then the engine is wrong by its evaluations. And I believe that adding right positional criterias make the openings much better without dependings on the openings book. Because any passive openings like c3 or d3 will impair the positional power of own pieces, blocking their current moves and abilities. For example, move c3 kills orthodox Knight's potential to attacking squares d5 and a4, limits its speed and agility (moves x threats) to attacking b5 and e4 and commonly is the very bad move, except cases that square of d4 is under opponent's attack and it is important to defend this square or to prepare active move of d4 (not d3). There is no need to calculate any deep variants to understand for the engine that this move is terrible.
Maybe, it will be better to create position's evaluating special config, in which user can define values of many position criterias (weights) if he want to correct the engine's playing style.
And the next idea is to improve endgames by learning the engine any type positions. For example, user edit the position, place some pieces and then launch the analysis and the program automately generate "Nalimov's tables" for the endgames with these peaces. I find that now the engine have several problems to checkmating a bare king with the Wyvern or even with the several Queen-type units (sometimes make stalemating instead checkmating), although this is a problem only if there is very fast timing control. But as for me, it's very interesting to explore the endgames of Dragon (Chancellor) versus Griffin (Rook) and many others with new units, because these endgames haven't any existing Nalimov's tables yet.
It doesn't work (5.0b3).
Update: I add the string /sameColorGames 100 to the end of file winboard.ini and it seems to work correctly, thanks.
I had saw that pawns' moves puts to hash as "c3" but with elvish diagonal pawns there are some different pawns able to move here.
Update: sorry, it was my mistake - I use the same file for different match-ups, they were not elves in that game. As I understand, I need to use different hash-file for each match-up.
H. G. Muller:
I'm interested in your statistical method of evaluating pieces with Fairy-Max. But I don't know details and need to some advices.
For example, I want to evaluate Pegasus, then change 2 Rooks by 2 Pegasus and launch long series. If I get a result of winrate of 60% (for example), how to convert it to centipawns? And how long match need to played for accuracy of 0.25 pawn? 0.1 pawn? 0.05 pawn? Is it works if I set a fast timing limits of 1 sec per turn, or maybe better to use another timing limits for such tests?
How is better to test pawns if they have different options to promote (different versions of queens)? First test Queens, get values, exchange them and then test pawns?
Do you have results for famous peaces, like Archbishop, Chancellor and Elephant (jB2) on the 8x8 board? What about base (orthodox) pieces: Knight, Bishop, Rook, Queen, King (as Man)?
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English is not my native language, that's why if you'll find any mistakes, please point on its to me.
Also, I'm opened for new suggestions, including the balance of some units and estimating their real value. But please consider that the main goal of this chess variant is the asymmetric balance with very simple rules and saving all basic mechanics and types.
And it will be very good if this chess variant will be implemented on any online chess engine, including AI testing balance, I hadn't done it yet.
Thanks for this site. And for "Chess with different armies" also, I'm not agree with some of things (basically with unaltered pawns, strange extra moves of typical pieces, extended/limited pieces), but learning of this experience was important for me, helping to realize what is better to choose the implementation of pieces.