Comments by catugo

I solved it, for some reason using open office instead of notepad does that, now I'll try to paste my own code!

The graphics are wrong, but the script works! For images it shows just cracked images!

It works great for the other game, the one with archbishops!

It works now, have you done something HG? or I just copied stuff wrong the first time?

Now I can actually play games, thank you H.G., I see now how silly they look. Thank you very much! It's now getting late here. See you soon!

Or on second thinking, why not an aplication for children that reaches grandmaster level at high levels of play!

I've made some experiments with those two games. It's actually quite exciting but I blunder pieces way to often! After I get some experience I hope to be able to provide a game of each! For now if you would like to try it yourself here are the scripts:

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=ANBQGWCR
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
queen::::e2,,e9
king::::f2,,f9
aanca:A:WyafsW:tiger:b2,,b9
griffin:G:FyafsF:gryphon:i2,,i9
champion::::e1,f1,,e10,f10
wizard:W:CF:mage:d1,g1,,d10,g10
knight:N:NmZ:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
</div></div>

 

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=QNBAMZELR
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
queen::::b2,,b9
king::::e2,,e9
archbishop:A:BN:cardinal:f2,,f9
chancellor::::i2,,i9
elephant:E:FAmH:elephant:e1,f1,,e10,f10
camel:L:CmW:camel:g1,,g10
zebra:Z:ZmF:zebra:d1,,d10
knight:N:NmG:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
</div></div>

Just save from notpad with the html extension and it should work.

I personally don't like multiplayer variants as I consider most of them unfair from the point of view that multiple players may attack the same victim. So if that's up to me I won't consider those. Playing against humans of the same level or close it's a good idea but it assumes a large enough number of players, not the case at least initially.

Regarding authority for the game, well the programmers are the main authority, who else. We or they (I'm not sure yet if I will get involved as I am more for more challenging tasks from an intellectual point of view) would consult the community of course.

Time should be enough maybe at blitz or a bit longer, not too fast as the player is not used to playing most of the variants, but not too tedious either.

I was concerned about the opening in the second game as I put the queen and marshall far from the center of the board. That happened mostly because I was not use to with an archbishop in the middle, but after a few trials it seems fine. I have seen the archbishop in the middle in Paulovich's variant of Capablanca chess, so I guess I am not the only one with this problem. I have done this in order to have the minor pieces (the ones who acording to opening principles attack first) closer to the middle. Although bishops could be 1 square more lateral.

I tinkered those 2 games a little bit and I came up with the following value of pieces based on their values in Omega Chess (omega chess website), Grand Chess (H.G.Muller values from wikipedia), Ralph Betza's evaluation of the aanca and griffin, mobility calculation for zebra, and my own observations playing the games, I also named the two games so I think I'm ready to maybe submit them, eventually:

Apothecary chess1

rook                   6

wizard               3.8

champion            4

knight                 4

bishop                4

queen                12

aanca                 7

griffin                8.75

 

Apothecary chess2

zebra                  3

camel               3.2

elephant            3.7

knight                3.4

bishop                4

queen                12

archbishop         10

marshall            11

 

I decided to name the games apothecary chess as they are obtained adding somewhat arbitrary mutations to well known games in the way apothecaries used to tinker their receipts.

Actually my mobility program gives the griffin roughly equal to a queen a little bit weaker on crowded boards but even stronger in the endgame. The Aanca is the strongest among the 3 in the beginning but quickly loses power becoming 21.5/26 queens in the endgame. Clearly stronger than stated. I think the conondrum comes from the fact that mister betza calculations are based on rook and bishop. So the result is that the rook and the bishop are stronger. The bishop is still 4 (ok maybe 4 and something) because it gets a colourboundness penalty, but the rook must be higher. My mobility program give 0.63 queens for the rook.

That beeing said 4 pawns are definetly better than a bishop in the endgame. Remember the rule that they can even promote to a rook on rank 8, but I never got that far with my calculations.

So new values:

rook                  7.25

wizard               3.8

champion            4

knight                 4

bishop               4.2

queen                12

aanca                 9

griffin                 11

 

Apothecary chess2

zebra                  3

camel               3.2

elephant            3.7

knight                3.4

bishop               4.2

queen                12

archbishop         10

marshall            11

rook                  7.25

The html code posted earlier doesn't enforce the rule that the pawn can promote to almost a rook on ranks 8 and 9 so you must decline manually not to promote to an aanca, griffin, queen , archbishop, marshall.

the archbishop is a bit high too maybe!

Actually I don't see many variants with aancas, griffins, or zebras. I assume there is good reason for that. That's why I considered the name paranoid chess, too, but my father advised me against it!

I appologise to have forgotten about this function, I've done so many attempts yesterday evening with other matters.

 

I had to change the order in promochoice, but the function works fine provided the piece list is open, or so I think, but that's not an issue

So no these are the scripts that allow you to play the games until in a few days when I post them on CVP!

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=ANQRBGWCP
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
queen::::e2,,e9
king::::f2,,f9
aanca:A:WyafsW:tiger:b2,,b9
griffin:G:FyafsF:gryphon:i2,,i9
champion::::e1,f1,,e10,f10
wizard:W:CF:mage:d1,g1,,d10,g10
knight:N:NmZ:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
</div></div>
<script>function WeirdPromotion(x1, y1,x2, y2, promo)
{
  if((board[y1][x1] & 15) != 1) return promo; // moved piece is not a Pawn
  if(y2 == 9 || y2 == 0) return ((promo & 15) == 1 ? 5 : promo); // on last rank: cannot stay Pawn
  if((promo & 15) > 4) return board[y1][x1]; // larger than Rook: remains Pawn
  return promo; // choice was acceptable
}
</script>

 

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=QAMRNBZELP
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
queen::::b2,,b9
king::::e2,,e9
archbishop:A:BN:cardinal:f2,,f9
chancellor::::i2,,i9
elephant:E:FAmH:elephant:e1,f1,,e10,f10
camel:L:CmW:camel:g1,,g10
zebra:Z:ZmF:zebra:d1,,d10
knight:N:NmG:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
</div></div>
<script>function WeirdPromotion(x1, y1,x2, y2, promo)
{
  if((board[y1][x1] & 15) != 1) return promo; // moved piece is not a Pawn
  if(y2 == 9 || y2 == 0) return ((promo & 15) == 1 ? 5 : promo); // on last rank: cannot stay Pawn
  if((promo & 15) > 4) return board[y1][x1]; // larger than Rook: remains Pawn
  return promo; // choice was acceptable
}
</script>

Thanks, I'll fix that!

It doesn't work properly in the 3rd rank it promoted only to QBN it is suposed to be other pieces, and yes it does not promote at the 9 th rank. Don't worry though. It works fine when hadled manually!

Ok, HG. I understand!

I did it correctly once again this is how it goes:

 

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=PBRCWNAQG
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
king::::f2,,f9
champion::::e1,f1,,e10,f10
wizard:W:CF:mage:d1,g1,,d10,g10
knight:N:NmZ:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
aanca:A:WyafsW:tiger:b2,,b9
queen::::e2,,e9
griffin:G:FyafsF:gryphon:i2,,i9
</div></div>
<script>function WeirdPromotion(x1, y1,x2, y2, promo)
{
  if((board[y1][x1] & 15) != 1) return promo; // moved piece is not a Pawn
  if(y2 == 9 || y2 == 0) return ((promo & 15) == 1 ? 5 : promo); // on last rank: cannot stay Pawn
  if((promo & 15) > 7) return board[y1][x1]; // larger than Rook: remains Pawn
  return promo; // choice was acceptable
}
</script>

 

 

 

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=PBRELZNACQ
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
king::::e2,,e9
elephant:E:FAmH:elephant:e1,f1,,e10,f10
camel:L:CmW:camel:g1,,g10
zebra:Z:ZmF:zebra:d1,,d10
knight:N:NmG:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
archbishop:A:BN:cardinal:f2,,f9
chancellor::::i2,,i9
queen::::b2,,b9
</div></div>
<script>function WeirdPromotion(x1, y1,x2, y2, promo)
{
  if((board[y1][x1] & 15) != 1) return promo; // moved piece is not a Pawn
  if(y2 == 9 || y2 == 0) return ((promo & 15) == 1 ? 5 : promo); // on last rank: cannot stay Pawn
  if((promo & 15) > 8) return board[y1][x1]; // larger than Rook: remains Pawn
  return promo; // choice was acceptable
}
</script>

I think both the tournaments, and the video game ideas are good, should we start a post on each of those?

H.G.,

About the pawn, this pawn is slightly weaker than in capablanca as it takes slightly longer to promote, not a big deal, if it's a passed pawn will eventually queen. But there is also a strengthening effect as it can promote at rank 8 to rook (well to a plethora of pieces but the best choice is usually rook). I have no clue how to evaluate this effect but it shouldn't be much as early under promotions will not happen often, I raise that matter because it's specific to those two games.

On the matter of archbishop+pawn there is no reason to doubt you, but I honestly don't know how to normalize everything. There is also no reason to think queens have different strengths between to two games for example. and what about the situation (admittedly rare) R+3P VS archbishop, point being is hard to find a balance.

I'd be honored if you take your time and put forward some values of your own, or on the other hand put some values at first glance.

I think in these cases machine learning could tune very well values, I've read an article somewhere on atomic chess and other games but I can't find it now.

And it doesn't have to be a 1dimesional value an archbishop could worth 10.5 in an A+P vs Q ending and 9.5 in a R+3P vs A ending. I don't know.

You were correct on yesterday assessment that the game is tedious. It takes a lot of time to reach endgame, actually in all cases I ended games through small blunders of pieces in early or late middle game. It became obvious IMO who'll win. :) At least it's not Taikyoku shogi I doubt anyone started that one, finishing it is out of question I guess.

Fergus,

How many points would players get, or at least a victory in Gross chess should worth more that a victory in Omega chess as a tiebreak, in order to also increase stakes as the tournament passes.

H.G.

"So there now is a corrected file at http://www.membergraphics/MSinteractive-diagrams/betza.gif ."

It doesn't work from here. When I paste this link in my broser it says: Server not found.

 

HG,

Now it works well!

I've reached a conundrum. I am far from being a chess grand master, I blunder way to often usually full pieces, the last time I missed a pin, silly me. I can't test the game further into endgame because of that. At my level the game becomes played quite soon, as chances for blunders are increased. On the other hand it was supposed to be an enhancement to the play at high levels. Do you see the conundrum?

Thanks, H.G. As always helpful!

I was playing against myself, after you blunder a piece you can't go back, and I don't remember the whole game after 25 moves (actually less). Also I did not kept records. I think though it is a good idea now that I advanced a little bit to keep records as some games could prove interesting.

Thanks, for all the help!

I think there is a way with sjaak to implement my way of promotion. Just create 2 different promotion zones, allow promotion to pawn when the case and that's it. Not tried it yet.

One think I haven't confessed yet is that I partially like the idea of chess960. Having different starting position is interesting. But not ANY different position. I think in many games you can fine tune 2 to n different setups. And then choose among them. I'm not the first who thought at this I'm sure.

How this does affect this post. I'd like apothecary 1 and apothecary 2 to have 2 possible initial positions. The first one is the one already presented named from now until the hereafter the bishops in or knights out position. The second one name from now until the hereafter the bishops out or knights in has the bishops and knights (each variant with it's own knights) switched.

With sjaak I can just plug two variants with the 2 starting setups, but with the diagram from the presumed variant page it's more complicated, I assume a button switching between the two positions will be involved.

It's that hard to do H.G.? Can you help me with that , too?

H.G.,

I have not managed to define the Aanca and the Griffin in Sjaak. Have you any idea?

On the last matter I think the Aanca may be Leap(1,0)+Slide(d,a), but I have to check, the griffin is somewhat similar. The trouble with the griffin is that you have to ban 4 steps (the ones like an wazir).

well, for an Aanca I can use the property of sliders that their move is a union of many lame leaper moves. But you should see that formula, and moreover, I don't think that is recomended programming wise. I still haven't give up.

That doesn't work either!

what if I convinct myself to FairyMAx for both games, just for symetry, I think I can handle weird scripts!