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H.G.Muller wrote on Mon, Apr 21, 2008 08:08 AM UTC:

Oh, sorry, I mis-read. Kaufman does have Q and C unusually high, not at
900-950, like most of us. So his difference C-A is actually 150 cP, not
50cP.

So let me correct my earlier statement: Yes, then I would consider Larry
Kaufman's Archbishop value way too low. No idea what made him decide on
these values, and as they appear to be very wrong, not very interesting to
figure it out by doing any 'homework' on it.

But in stead of this fruitless discussion, let us try a more entertaining
approach. You seem convinced that A-C > 200cP (correct me if I am wrong).
So the position 
rnabqkbanr/pppppppp/10/10/10/10/PPPPPPPP/R1CBQKBCNR w KQkq - 0 1
(imbalance 2A+N vs 2C) should be biased in favor of the Chancellors. So
you should have little trouble winning it, when playing white.

So how about a 10-game free-style match, playing from this position? I
would use Joker, playing it at 1 hour per move on a 1.3GHz Pentium M. You
could play yourself, or consult any Chess program you like, to decide on
your moves. We could do this in the Gothic Chess blog, so that people can
follow the match in public.

Are you up to such a challange?

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Aberg variation of Capablanca's Chess. Different setup and castling rules. (10x8, Cells: 80)

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 04:43 PM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| But the point is that this does not alter the piece values.

Right, though that might be just a preferred way to structure theory because it suits human thinking. Essentially, define contexts, and attach values to them. First define piece values in nutralk settings. Then observe that the bishop pair gets an added value. Then try to figure out values for good and poor bishops. And so on. By contrast, computers tend to be very poor at handling such contexts, so other methods might be suitable for programs.

Derek Nalls wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:26 PM UTC:

Muller:

You have my best regards toward your worthwhile effort to publish your
empirical, statistical method for obtaining the material values of pieces
in the ICGA Journal.  My assessment is that it will surely be a much
better paper than the junk [name removed] published in the same journal
regarding piece values.

[The above has been edited to remove a name and/or site reference. It is
the policy of cv.org to avoid mention of that particular name and site to
remove any threat of lawsuits. Sorry to have to do that, but we must
protect ourselves. -D. Howe]

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 03:22 PM UTC:

Sure, this is what people do and have done for ages. It is well known that the advantage of having the move is worth 1/6 of a Pawn, (corresponding in normal Chess to a white score of 53-54%) and that, by inference, wasting a full move is equivalent to 1/3 of a Pawn.

But the point is that this does not alter the piece values. It just adds to them, like every positional advantage adds to them. In my test the advantage of having the lead move is neutralized by playing every position both with white to move and black to move.

💡📝Hans Aberg wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 11:50 AM UTC:

H.G.Muller:
| As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet
| positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move.

At the beginning of the game, white is thought to have a slight advantage, and the first task of black will be attempting to neutralize that. And it might be possible set a picee value to that positional advantage, just as when reasoning in terms of getting positional compensation for a sacrifice. Somewhat less han a pawn, perhaps. If one knows about the black/white winning statistics, one might be able to set a value on it that way. It may not be usable for a computer program as it does not change sides, but only computes the relative values of moves.

H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, May 3, 2008 10:34 AM UTC:

As piece values are only useful as strategic guidelines for quiet positions, they cannot be sensitive to who has the move. A position where it matters who has the move is by definition nont quiet, as one ply later that characteristic will have essentially changed. So at the level of piece-value strategies, Chess is a perfectly symmetric game.

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