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Fairy-Max: an AI for playing user-defined Chess variants. A chess engine configurable for playing a wide variety of chess variants.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Jan 25, 2017 06:20 PM UTC:

I'm trying to use fairy max to play a game with 4 new pieces at the corners (the new piece is a hawk and it jumps 2 or 3 squares in any direction). The game definition is below (in fmax.ini). When I run this game black's pieces are shown in wrong locations, and the game immedietly results in a stalemate. (I have legality checking turned off, but I get errors either way). Can anyone let me know what I'm doing wrong? thanks.

// variant - [new piece at corners]
Game: fun01 # PNBRQ.....AKpnbrq.....ak # fairy
8x8
8 4 5 7 3 5 4 8
8 4 5 7 3 5 4 8
p:74 -16,24 -16,6 -15,5 -17,5
p:74  16,24 16,6 15,5 17,5
k:-1  1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:259 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:296 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:444 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3
Q:851 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
H:900 -16,7 -32,7 1,7 2,7 16,7 32,7 -1,7 -2,7 -15,7 -30,7 17,7 34,7 15,7 30,7 -17,7 -34,7
 


Man. Moves to any adjacent square, like a King, but not royal.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Jan 29, 2017 05:51 AM UTC:

The Mann is also used in Waterloo Chess and Amsterdam Medieval Chess (called spy) and "Chess on an Infinite Plane" and "Bulldog Chess" (called guard). I'm in a few games using a guard but no one is sure what it's worth. Fair exchange for a bishop or knight, or is it worth more than that?
 


V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Jan 29, 2017 03:54 PM UTC:

But the icon we're using for the Mann (Guard) doesn't look anything like the images shown on this page. Is there any way I can submit an image to this forum, and someone can add it to this page? Or another idea is to make a new page dedicated just to the Guard. It's a very popular piece in chess variant games.


V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Jan 29, 2017 10:02 PM UTC:
I agree the guard (mann) is probably worth less than 4, but how much less?
 
According to a table in Wikipedia "Chess Piece Relative Value" Emanuel Lasker (World Chess Champion for 27 years) and Larry Evans (chess Grandmaster) estimated the king is worth 4 points. If we say the guard is worth less, are we saying these guys are wrong?

V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Jan 30, 2017 04:28 PM UTC:
Thanks for the information. The good news is that a guard (man) doesn't have the same value as any other classical chess piece. It fills a "hole" between knight and bishop, and the rook. So it's usually easy to decide if you should exchange it or not. Capturing a rook is worth the loss of a guard. If in melee with a knight or bishop, get support or flee.
 
Btw, I think that this discussion about the value of the guard provides an irrefutable basis for the inconsistency in naming this piece "Man". In an actual medieval war (not chess), a man is not superior to a knight or bishop. A man is the same thing as a peasant (pawn) and may or may not be well-fed and capable of fighting.
 
A guard is always fit and has martial arts training, and can be armed with weapons such as a dagger or spear, so has good chance when fighting with a knight. (In Waterloo chess the icon for the guard carries a very large stone for throwing, although in this game the guard is even stronger than a king - its inventor has also called him an "Elite" or "Elite Guard").
 
There is also a basis for judging a guard as superior to a bishop. A guard does not have theological training, but the sobering truth is this: the bishop's membership in the clergy will not protect him from an armed fighter trained in the martial arts.
 
Even 14 years ago there were comments that the name "man" might have problems.  (See comments below from 2003).
 
In my opinion this page should be re-titled "Guard", with a comment saying also known as "man".

V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Jan 30, 2017 08:27 PM UTC:
Wikipedia shows the data (table in "Chess Piece Relative Value") for Lasker's and Evan's piece values as this(NBRQK):
Lasker 3  3   5 "9-10" 4
Evans  3½ 3½+ 5  10    4
 
Thanks George for showing the links to Waterloo and Amsterdam Medieval Chess. The later can also be played here:
http://hgm.nubati.net/variants/amsterdam
I've been looking for someone to play against in Amsterdam Medieval Chess. I'll be happy to play at either site. If anyone would like to play leave a message.:)

V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Jan 31, 2017 04:45 AM UTC:
There's an interesting contradiction here. We trust Kaufman's data because it is based on games played by grandmasters. Grandmaster play is important because we are measuring the value of pieces when played with accuracy (not affected by poor play and blunders). Grandmasters say the king is worth 4. We say the king is worth only 3.1.
Conclusion: Grandmasters can win even more games if they knew a king's value is 3.1, not 4.0
 
On a side note, I wrote an article specifically about the guard (commoner/man) which interested readers can find here:
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess960-chess-variants/a-critical-analysis-of-the-guard-in-chess
The opening paragraph includes a total of 26 other names for this piece. I don't talk much about the value of the guard, but it does have a brief quote by the one "HGMuller". :)

V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Feb 4, 2017 06:40 PM UTC:

Thanks Kevin for the information.

I recently started using Fairy-Max, and did a test to try to confirm HGMuller's information. Using guards on a 10 x 8 board, each test starts with at least 2 knights and 2 bishops for each side, and guards on only one side.

 

asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 2 bishops]
guards win (score) = 40/80 = 50.0%

 

asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 2 knights]
guards win (score) = 46/80 = 57.5%

 

asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 1 bishop and 1 knight]
guards win (score) = 101/200 = 50.5%

 

I think these tests confirm HGM's conclusions. A guard seems to be very nearly equal to a bishop, and slightly superior to a knight. When the game is [3 knights, 3 bishops] vs. [2 knights, 2 bishops, 2 guards] the guards are almost exactly equal to the average of knights and bishops.

 

note: this test started with an unknown value for the guard. By fine-tuning their value, they might be able to play slightly better, so the guards value might be even a little more than summarized here.

 

Btw, here's an updated image of a guard (what I see more often in variant chess games).

 


Chess on a Really Big Board. Chess on multiple chess boards. (16x16, Cells: 256) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 7, 2017 11:39 PM UTC:

In the section "One Set, Four Boards" the author wrote "Seems like a silly idea, but the small number of pieces means that the game won't take so many moves, and the position of the Kings means that they will never be safe -- and so there will be many short games with exciting attacks.".

The king will never be safe? The king is next to some strong pieces that can defend him. He's next to a queen, and other pieces can easily move into positions to defend from all directions.
 
If the opponent tries to attack from the flanks or the rear, it seems to me that the king can be defended faster than the opponent can send new attackers. With good play I don't see how games will be shorter than normal chess.  And at the endgame, putting the king in checkmate would take longer because pushing him to a corner will take more moves.
So I don't think games will be shorter with exciting attacks. Well-played games will be slower with fewer and less-interesting attacks. Please let me know if I'm missing something. And has anyone played this?

Infinite Chess. Chess on on infinite board.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Feb 8, 2017 07:36 PM UTC:
I'm now experimenting with a version of chess which uses a board of infinite size. I call it "Chess on an Infinite Plane".
 
I didn't worry about any rules requiring pieces to not move to remote areas. I don't think this has to be worried about, because moving too far away would be poor play. It's self-regulating and therefore does not need to be in the rules. Pieces that move far away would lose their targets (and ability to create forks). I did add some other pieces and pawns so that each player has more attacking power, and help ensure there is enough material in the endgame for the winning side to create checkmate.
 
I'm currently in three games (playing about one move per day).
 
And, I also have a second version: "Chess on an Infinite Plane - Huygens Option". It adds the huygens, which is a piece which can jump a prime number of squares. It helps to protect some pieces in their starting positions. (As a side-effect it also makes it more difficult for computers to "solve" this game, because the set of prime numbers itself is unknown, and not easy to calculate).
 
Some discussion about the game is here:
If anyone would like to play either of these games, let me know.:)

Charge of the Light Brigade. Seven knights fight 3 queens, and usually win! (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Feb 13, 2017 06:35 PM UTC:

This is interesting. It's one of the most extreme examples I've seen where piece values are not a good indicator of one side's advantage in chess.

Thanks for sharing.:)


Diagram testing thread[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Feb 13, 2017 06:40 PM UTC:

How do you post a diagram? I tried to post an image of the guard in one thread, but it doesn't show immediately on the page. An icon needs to be clicked again to see the graphic.


Marseillais Chess. Move twice per turn. (8x8, Cells: 64) (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Feb 13, 2017 06:54 PM UTC:

Wow, this rule change makes a big difference to the game of chess!

The sample games were finished in 4, 7, 18, and 13 moves - each move certainly has much more influence on the game play.

I've been trying to think of ways to "add power" to the game "Chess on an Infinite Plane" without adding more or stronger pieces. This might be a good way to do it (but maybe with some limitations).

Is there anyone who would like to try such a game? I'm open to any new and innovative ideas. If you have any favorite pieces, we can try those also (but I'm looking for more than just a mix of new pieces).

The games in play for Chess on an Infinite Plane are going well so far. I'm just interested in a version which might somewhat amplify the game power a little.


Diagram testing thread[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 14, 2017 01:29 PM UTC:

Ok, Thanks Kevin. I didn't know there was a diagram maker on this site. I'm impressed that it can make diagrams with hexagonal shapes. Your diagram also appears to be an interesting start to a new game. Thanks for the info.


V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Feb 15, 2017 02:52 PM UTC:
That's really cool. You used vibrant colors with a good yellow/green theme which makes it very aesthetically pleasing.
Is the goal to eventually make this become a chess variant? I won't tell the moderators if you are just using this to make play art.;)
You're making me wonder if this Diagram Designer can be used to show the board set-up for "Chess on an Infinite Plane". The initial view is usually 20 files x 22 ranks. One minor problem is that the files are labeled by numbers rather than letters (to allow easier notation for when pieces move very far left or right).
The last steps would be to find replacement symbols for the guard, chancellor, and hawk. There's also a Huygens - but I have not found anyone who will play me in a game with that option yet. The huygens jumps prime numbers of squares (3, 5, 7, 11,...).
Thanks for sharing the diagrams. I'll check here again to see what else gets discovered!

V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Feb 16, 2017 01:32 AM UTC:
I saw Diagram Designer, but I don't undersand where you go to practice making those diagrams.
It mentions adding diagrams to your own page, but I see no link where to do that.
Are you doing these on one of your own pages, or if not, where do you go to make such diagrams (prior to adding it to this thread)?

What is a Chess variant?. An essay on what distinguishes a Chess variant from other games.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Feb 16, 2017 08:20 PM UTC:
Great information. Thanks for sharing. That's interesting that you mentioned wargames, and how there you can move more than one piece per turn.
In "Chess on an Infinite Plane" I've been thinking of allowing some situations where more than one piece can be moved per turn (but rather infrequently, and mostly only when the two pieces are in distinctly different locations, i.e. different localized battles).
I haven't implemented it yet, but your mention of wargames makes me think that there may be a rather large upper bounds for this. Good article!

Diagram testing thread[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Feb 16, 2017 08:36 PM UTC:

Thanks Kevin, that helps a lot!

Here's my first chess diagram made by HTML code (which I'm pretty sure is an illegal position):

<IMG SRC="/play/pbm/drawdiagram.php?code=RnbqkbnRpPpPpPpP32pPpPpPpPrNBQKBNr">

Your information is a big help.:)


V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Feb 16, 2017 08:41 PM UTC:

It showed up correctly at Diagram Designer. Not sure what's missing here.

(That is, it showed correctly an illegal chess position).

Well, for now, at least I can make diagrams at the Designer page.:)


V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Feb 17, 2017 04:21 PM UTC:

Here is the code which represents the starting position for "Chess on an Infinite Plane":

<IMG SRC="/play/pbm/drawdiagram.php?code=1p1e1p8p1e1p3p1p10p1p5p12p86profnbqkbnforp7pppppppppppp88PPPPPPPPPPPP7PROFNBQKBNFORP86P12P5P1P10P1P3P1E1P8P1E1P1&cols=20&point=22&bcolor=FOFFFO&colors=D3D3D3+FFFACD+F5DEB3&tcolor=FFFACD">

Kevin: Thanks for your help with using Diagram Designer. (I'm still trying to learn how "colors" works, and if there is a reference somewhere that shows selections available with code to use).

I will submit this soon so it's shown here also in the ChessVariants Pages. It's already being played at the chess.com forum. (I recently lost a rook in one game, putting me behind):(

Also, can anyone tell me why the code does not display in these threads? It works at the Designer Page. Am I missing something to make it display here?

Thanks,


V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Feb 17, 2017 06:51 PM UTC:

I have one more question I hope someone can help me with:

I would like to switch the colors of the black and white squares of the chessboard in this diagram:

<IMG SRC="/play/pbm/drawdiagram.php?code=1p1e1p8p1e1p3p1p10p1p5p12p86profnbqkbnforp7pppppppppppp88PPPPPPPPPPPP7PROFNBQKBNFORP86P12P5P1P10P1P3P1E1P8P1E1P1&cols=20&point=22&bcolor=FOFFFO&colors=D3D3D3+FFFACD+F5DEB3&tcolor=FFFACD">
 

The pattern colors are specified by:

D3D3D3 FFFACD F5DEB3

But when I move sections around, I can't get the colors to switch as expected. Can anyone explain how this works?

It's just a minor detail, but I would prefer if I can make the diagram so that the queen is on her own color. (I like to keep with tradition, except for the variant rules that are actually being revised).

Thanks if anyone can help.:)
 


Chess on an Infinite Plane[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Feb 17, 2017 08:57 PM UTC:
I am posting the game instructions at this forum for comments, and to see if anyone would like to play. I also submitted the game to be posted on these pages, which I assume Fergus will do once he's finished with the review.
 

"Chess on an Infinite Plane"

 
Introduction:
 
"Chess on an Infinite Plane" is a chess variant played on a chessboard of infinite size. This version uses Fergus Duniho's innovative and abstract piece images.
 
The game starts with additional material not just for variety, but to help make enough material available in the endgame so that one player can force a win. Since there are no borders, pieces (and in particular the king) cannot be trapped at edges or in corners. The chancellors (R+N) provide immediate ability to create long distance attacks. There are also additional pawns, including some in rearward formations (called jäger units), which typically enter play late in the midgame, and can create the threat of additional promoted pieces. There are hawks centered in the jäger units, which protect the rearmost pawns, but can leave their formations and enter into spectacular play. Each player also has two guards, which can be used as king defenders or for other strategic play.
 
Setup:
 
 
Pieces:
 
Black and White each have the following pieces: 1 king, 1 queen, 2 chancellors, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, 2 guards, 2 hawks, and 24 pawns.
 
All pieces move as in classical chess, with the "extra" three piece types moving as follows:
 
Chancellor (C) - Moves and captures as rook + knight.


Hawk (H) - Leaps exactly 2 or 3 squares in any orthogonal or diagonal direction. The leaping move means it can jump over other pieces.


Guard (G) - Moves and captures the same as a king but is not affected by check.


Pawns play the same and promote at the same rank as in classical chess. (Using the board coordinates shown in the diagram, white pawns promote at rank 15, and black pawns promote at rank 8). Pawns can promote to chancellor, hawk, or guard in addition to queen, rook, bishop, or knight. Pawns may capture en passant with the same rules as in classical chess.
 
There is no castling.
 
There is no fifty-move rule. Draws can only occur from stalemate, threefold repetition, agreement, or a proven case of insufficient material to force checkmate.
 
All other rules are the same as in classical (FIDE) chess.
 
The Chessboard:
 
1. Board for OTB Play:
 
A playing area should be setup with at least 22 ranks and 20 files. Ensure provisions are available to expand the board if play requires. If this becomes inconvenient due to far-away pieces, a display board is used to indicate the location of remote pieces. If there is interesting play in small but remote areas, other playing areas can be labeled and used separately from the main board.
 
2. Diagram for Online Play:
 
A chess diagram is used to indicate the position of pieces either after each move by white, or each move by black. The diagram should include 22 ranks and 20 files. If any pieces are moved outside of this area, the diagram is expanded or notes are shared to indicate the location of far-away pieces.  If there is interesting play in small but remote areas, other diagrams can be used to show piece positions separately from the main diagram.
 
Ranks are numbered just as in classical chess; ranks 16 and higher are deeper into black's side; ranks 7 and less are deeper into white's side.
 
Files visible in the initial diagram are labeled a - t. From white's view, they continue to the right u - z, and then aa,ab,ac, and so on. The file immediately to the left of "a" is "phi" ("φ"). Files further to the left are -a,-b,-c, and so on to -z, and then -aa, -ab, -ac, and so on. For convenience, the "φ" file can be written "0". (The zero file = "φ" = "0")
 
Parenthesis are used around each square identification. Some examples of move notations are as follows (view from white):
 
1) A rook moving to the left from e8 to a8:
 
R(e8)-(a8) or R(a8)
 
(With a classical board, this would be "Ra8")
 
2) A rook moving to the left one square from the a8 square:
 
R(a8)-(φ8) or R(φ8) or R(08)
 
3) A rook moving to the left three squares from the a8 square:
 
R(a8)-(-b8) or R(-b8)
 
4) A rook moving vertically three squares from e8 farther back into white:
 
R(e8)-(e5) or R(e5)
 
(The game can also be played using numerical coordinates for both files and ranks, as is usually played at chess.com)
 
Notes:
 
Other sub-variants exist including:
 
1) Chess on an Infinite Plane with Huygens Option - The huygens is a piece which leaps 5, 7, 11, 13, and all larger prime numbers of squares in orthogonal directions. The huygens are initially located to protect one of the pawns in the jäger units, thus, making it safer for the hawks to leave their positions and join other battles. (as a side effect, the huygens may ensure that this variant of chess will never be "solved" by computers, as the complete set of prime numbers is itself unknown).
 
2) Formation Chess/Infinite Plane - The Battle of Kadesh - Each player starts with a large number of knights (usually twelve or more). The knights can join into 2x2 formations, gaining the ability to move together as a queen. The group must stop moving when at least one of the members encounters an occupied square. A group can capture an opponent’s piece, but only one and not more than one per move. If the group falls apart, or one member is captured, the remainder play again as knights. (This hybrid version was invented by EvertVB).
 
Thanks to Fergus Duniho for making Diagram Designer available, and also the abstract piece collection. Also thanks to Kevin Pacey for helping with Diagram Designer.
 
by Vickalan.
 
I will also be happy to consider other variations of the rules, or to play with other pieces. Please contact me if interested in playing a game.

Diagram testing thread[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Feb 17, 2017 09:14 PM UTC:

Thanks Kevin, you've been a big help! I just added the game to a new thread. I was even able to switch the square colors so the queens are now on her own color. Fergus Duniho's abstract (and cubist) piece images were also very helpful to make the chess diagram have a nice appearance.

I have many questions about this game, which I hope people on these forums might be able to answer. (For example what are some example of pieces required to checkmate on an infinite plane?)

And I also hope someone will play me in a game.

Thanks again!


Chess on an Infinite Plane with Huygens Option[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Feb 18, 2017 03:25 PM UTC:

I'm now posting the rules for a sub-variant of "Chess on an Infinite Plane:

"Chess on an Infinite Plane with Huygens Option"

 
Introduction:
 
"Chess on an Infinite Plane with Huygens Option" is a chess variant played on a chessboard of infinite size. This version uses Fergus Duniho's innovative and abstract piece images.
 
The game includes two huygens for each color. Huygens can jump 5, 7, 11 and other prime numbers of squares in orthogonal directions (i.e. 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31...). Since it jumps in prime numbers, other jumpers such as the knight and hawk, need to make an inefficient maneuver when pursuing a huygens, causing wasted moves. The huygens do not add a lot of strength to the army, but may have some effect on play. They are initially located to protect one of the pawns in each of the rearward formations (jäger units). Thus, it is safer for the hawks to leave their positions and join other battles. (The huygens is named after Christiaan Huygens, a Dutch mathematician who studied the rings of Saturn and invented the pendulum clock).
 
As with the base version of this game, other new pieces are included not just for variety, but to help make enough material available in the endgame so that one player can force a win. Since there are no borders, the king cannot be trapped in a corner. The chancellors (R+N) provide immediate ability to create long distance attacks. There are also additional pawns, including those in the jäger units, which can create a threat of additional promoted pieces. A hawk is centered in each jäger unit, initially protecting the rearmost pawns, but can leave its formation and enter into spectacular play. Each player also has two guards, which can be used as king defenders or for other strategic play.
 
Setup:
 
 
Pieces:
 
Black and White each have the following pieces: 1 king, 1 queen, 2 chancellors, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, 2 guards, 2 hawks, 2 huygens, and 22 pawns.
 
All pieces move as in classical chess, with the "extra" four piece types moving as follows:
 
Chancellor - Moves and captures as rook + knight.


Hawk - Leaps exactly 2 or 3 squares in any orthogonal or diagonal direction. The leaping move means it can jump over other pieces.


Guard - Moves and captures the same as a king but is not affected by check.


 
Huygens - Jumps 5, 7, 11 and other prime numbers of squares in orthogonal directions (5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29...).


Pawns play the same and promote at the same rank as in classical chess. (Using the board coordinates shown in the diagram, white pawns promote at rank 14, and black pawns promote at rank 7). Pawns can promote to chancellor, hawk, or guard in addition to queen, rook, bishop, or knight. Pawns may capture en passant with the same rules as in classical chess.
 
There is no castling.
 
There is no fifty-move rule. Draws can only occur from stalemate, threefold repetition, agreement, or a proven case of insufficient material to force checkmate.
 
All other rules are the same as in classical (FIDE) chess.
 
The Chessboard:
 
1. Board for OTB Play:
 
A playing area should be setup with at least 22 ranks and 20 files. Ensure provisions are available to expand the board if play requires. If this becomes inconvenient due to far-away pieces, a display board is used to indicate the location of remote pieces. If there is interesting play in small but remote areas, other playing areas can be labeled and used separately from the main board.
 
2. Diagram for Online Play:
 
A chess diagram is used to indicate the position of pieces either after each move by white, or each move by black. The diagram should include 22 ranks and 20 files. If any pieces are moved outside of this area, the diagram is expanded or notes are shared to indicate the location of far-away pieces.  If there is interesting play in small but remote areas, other diagrams can be used to show piece positions separately from the main diagram.
 
Ranks are numbered just as in classical chess; ranks 15 and higher are deeper into black's side; ranks 6 and less are deeper into white's side.
 
Files visible in the initial diagram are labeled a - t. From white's view, they continue to the right u - z, and then aa,ab,ac, and so on. The file immediately to the left of "a" is "phi" ("φ"). Files further to the left are -a,-b,-c, and so on to -z, and then -aa, -ab, -ac, and so on. For convenience, the "φ" file can be written "0". (The zero file = "φ" = "0")
 
Parenthesis are used around each square identification. Some examples of move notations are as follows (view from white):
 
1) A rook moving to the left from e8 to a8:
 
R(e8)-(a8) or R(a8)
 
(With a classical board, this would be "Ra8")
 
2) A rook moving to the left one square from the a8 square:
 
R(a8)-(φ8) or R(φ8) or R(08)
 
3) A rook moving to the left three squares from the a8 square:
 
R(a8)-(-b8) or R(-b8)
 
4) A rook moving vertically three squares from e8 farther back into white:
 
R(e8)-(e5) or R(e5)
 
(The game can also be played using numerical coordinates for both files and ranks, as is usually played at chess.com)
 
Notes:
 
Thanks to Fergus Duniho for making Diagram Designer available, and also the abstract piece collection. Also thanks to Kevin Pacey for helping with Diagram Designer.
 
by Vickalan.
 
I will also be happy to consider other variations of the rules, or to play with other pieces. Please contact me if interested in playing a game.

Chess on an Infinite Plane[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Feb 18, 2017 04:18 PM UTC:

Thanks Aurelian! I read about your variant Enep. I like the short and succint name. I know it means Enhanced Knight Exrtra Pawn, but the name also sounds Norse or Scandanavian (I think that might be where gnomes came from).

I also like the simplicity of the game. Chess can already be very complicated, so only a minor rule change is needed to make a good variant. Your variant sounds intriguing. When I finish one or two other games (I'm usually playing about 5-7 games concurrently, one move per day), I might want to play Enep.:)


Diagram testing thread[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Feb 19, 2017 10:59 PM UTC:

I also submitted a variant (Chess on an Infinite Plane using classical chess pieces) on 2/16, but haven't seen or heard anything yet.

I'm interested in seeing yours:)


Chess on an Infinite Plane[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 21, 2017 06:51 AM UTC:

Hi Aurelian,I'm not sure why my name shows up with question marks. I see it that way too.

Btw, did you finish any more work with Enap? Are you testing it by playing for real, or by testing it some other way?

:)


V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 21, 2017 03:35 PM UTC:

Oh that's cool!

I noticed in the notes you said you only played one game. Can you make the engines play multiple times (like 50 games)? If you can play a game cpu vs. cpu why not a bigger study?

Also, if you're moving around pawns to balance the game, have you thought about adding two pawns to each side? For example, you give one side pawns in weak positions (a and h?) and the other side strong (c and f?). This MIGHT let the setup be symmetrical (althought that doesn't really have a benefit except for aesthetics).

I think it's cool that you are doing experimentation to improve the game. I'm not sure how much fine-tuning is possible. You might be able to get it so that it is so balance that white's first move advantage is gone. (that means one side will always get the knightwa.

Unfortunatelly for me, I don't think there are any engines that play chess on an infinite board. So I can't test "Chess on an Infinite Plane" with an engine. But my games with three real people are going well (I think I'm winning in won, near tie in another, and losing one).

I am starting to study a new version. It might have a few more pieces, but in certain situations TWO pieces can be moved in one turn. For example, moving two pawns in one move, moving two bishops together when they are adjacent to each other, or moving two pieces if they are still in their original positions but engaged in different localized battles. My goal is to help the opening game move faster, and add new dynamics.

When playing by correspondence (1 move per day), I think a 50-100 move game is OK, but if the game last more than 200 moves that might be getting too long.

Suggestions by anyone are welcome!:)


V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 21, 2017 04:19 PM UTC:

Ok great, keep me updated if you find a new variation of Enap!

Like I said before, I really like the name, and the simplicity of the initial setup is very elegant I think.

In fact, I think the name, and the game match each other very well.

Here is the setup I am considering for my next game. It uses the "huygens" which is a piece which jumps prime numbers of squares. That's the piece with a triangular outer shape and cross-shaped cutout (from icons by Furgus Duniho).

A more detailed description of the huygens is here .

Thanks for sharing info about Enap!

 

V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 21, 2017 04:43 PM UTC:

Enep, that's right! I'm very sorry.

The huygens will add more trouble if anyone wants to make a chess engine that uses it. For one thing, the list of all prime numbers is hard to describe (they aren't even all known). But if played in a normal game, it should not be hard to use as long as it doesn't move far.

The largest known prime number is [2^(74,207,281) − 1] which has 22,338,618 digits. If anyone wants to move a hugens farther than that, first they will have to prove the number is prime. I won't wait for any player who wants to make such a move!:)

For Enep, I'll remember "Enhanced knight - extra pawn"!

:)


Diagram testing thread[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Feb 23, 2017 02:30 AM UTC:
Hi Kevin, how do you call that 4D? (are you refering to 4 dimensions)?
 
The 55x55 is a large 2D format. Then you cut out sections to give you islands, which can be considered
groups of 2D, so now you have 3D. Where does the 4D come from?
 
Btw, the pieces are small in your diagram, but I think it would still be playable. These topics are interesting to me, because I'm continuing to explore the possibilities of playing chess on very large and infinite-size chessboards. But there is a point when pieces can be moved too far, and could not be displayed on a single image. (but I have found no reason anyone would want to move pieces extremelly far from their setup positions anyways).
 
Also, how did you find the code to use to select the green and green/yellow hexagons? Just trial and error, or is there a methodical way to select specific colors?
 
Keep up the good work! And let me know where the 4D comes from.:)

V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Feb 23, 2017 03:59 PM UTC:

Thanks Kevin, It looks like you've made many variations of hexagonal-based board shapes. They are very interesting. That's also a good tip to use the "-" to block out squares, to make even more interesting board patterns. I've thought of doing that in an initial diagram, to add "walls" or other obstructions in a chessboard, but have not done so yet.

As for experimenting with large diagrams, I took a previous image and "zoomed-out" to a 50x50 grid. This represents a previous game set-up (it is not new), but it is an expanded view which can be used in the event pieces "spread out" during play.

Good work on your diagrams and, thanks for all the tips you've been sharing:)


The Huygens Chess Piece[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Feb 24, 2017 12:05 AM UTC:

The Huygens Chess Piece

The huygens is a chess piece that jumps in a rook's direction any prime number of squares (2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23,...). I use it in the chess variant Trappist-1.
 


"H" - Huygens
 
In some games it may be limited to a minimum jump so that it is not a close attacker. The following are my estimates of the huygens' value based on its minimum jump:
 
Allowed Jumps - Estimated Piece Value:
2, 3, 5, 7, 11...(value = rook + 2 pawns)
3, 5, 7, 11...   (value = rook+)
5, 7, 11...      (value = bishop+)
 
There are an infinite number of prime numbers, so in theory a huygens can jump infinitely far. However, not all prime numbers are known. The largest known prime number is [2^(74,207,281) − 1] (which has 22,338,618 digits). Although a huygens can jump infinitely far, when playing chess, the players must declare the specific square that a piece is to be moved to. So this limits the distance that a huygens can travel in a single move. It is the player that moves the huygens that carries the burden to prove that a number is prime. (If his opponent requests it, he would need to cite the source showing the leaping distance is a prime number).
 
An example of a large legal move would be:
 
Hb[(2,996,863,034,895 x 2^(1,290,000) + 1], Chris K. Caldwell. "The Top Twenty Twin Primes"
 
In an actual game there would not normally be any reason to move a piece this far, because then it would lose its targets, and especially its ability to create forks in different directions. But I think it's good to make sure all the rules of a game and its pieces are carefully defined, so there will be no questions or points of contention once a game starts.
 
The huygens (white) is shown in the diagram below on square b2, and its moves are indicated with red symbols. This diagram is a 50x50 grid, but when played in Chess on an Infinite Plane, the huygens can jump to numerous other squares outside the boundary of this diagram.
 
 
A link to Trappist-1 is here:
 
Trappist-1
 

The birth of two variants: Apothecary chess 1 & Apothecary chess 2[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Feb 25, 2017 01:20 PM UTC:

Where do we read about the fool or the game it is used in? I could not find any info about apothecary chess. Did you post any info any about it yet?


V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Feb 25, 2017 04:38 PM UTC:
@Aurelian Florea
Yes of course I'd like to see the game idea. I thought you were asking us to speculate on the fool without knowing what it does. Now you and Greg explained it. That's the same piece sometimes called the Joker.
Honestly, I like the name Joker more. The fool is used in Courier Chess as a not-very-strong piece (i.e. "foolish"). I think the Joker sounds better because Jokers are unpredicatable.
 
Btw, here is an example game with a joker (with images for the full game): Bulldog chess-angel joker game .
 
Regardless, your game sounds interesting! The Fool/Joker piece always add a lot of fun "new strategy" to a game.:)

V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Feb 25, 2017 06:29 PM UTC:
The game is finished, but if you want to see of an example of the Joker's moves (right in the middle of a complex position) you can check move 28 and 29. It might give some insight to the joker's value:
28...Bf7  (black bishop attacks joker)
29.Jxf7   (joker gets the bishop's move and captures the bishop)
29...Qxf7 (white captures the black joker in return)

This shows joker may indeed be about the average of the other pieces.
Black willing to give up bishop for joker. (calculating joker is worth more).
White sacrifices joker to capture bishop (calculating bishop is worth more).
So joker must be somewhere in the middle. :)
 
You have a good combination of game pieces. I also like the archbishop and chancellor. I can't wait to see the graphics you use.
:)

V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Feb 27, 2017 04:30 PM UTC:
How big is the board? You mention rank 10, so I assume it's 10x10?
You have a lot of new pieces, some fairly powerful such as griffin, aanca, chancellor, and archbishop. But it's hard for me to envision without seeing the board set-up.
How long did the game(s) last? If you have a joker (or fool) I think a slow game might be more fun, because it lets the players put more thought on when to move and not move the joker. But if the game progresses too fast, the joker may not have had time to be used strategically. That's just my theory, but of course I don't have an engine that can play this game. It's impressive that Greg is programming chessV as fast as you are inventing new games.
Btw, (Greg), I think you are right that a position is not repeated if the joker has a different move. The repetition rule should only be applied as a last resort. If the game has changed status in any way, the players should be left to battle it out.
 

V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Feb 27, 2017 10:45 PM UTC:
Hi Aurelian,
I didn't know that you also program code for playing chess (or at least adding code to play new variants). That's pretty cool.
 
It looks like a good starting setup for Apothecary games. I like how the king and queen are in mirror symmetry (same as normal chess) but other sections have rotational symmetry (white's empty squares on h and i, and black's on b and c). It looks like a good set-up with good piece density. (I didn't study the coin-toss system yet to see what other starting positions are possible).
 
I'm not sure what you mean by beta test. Do you mean testing Apothecary by playing an on-line game? I wouldn't mind playing a variant game on-line by correspondence. Can that be done here, or only at the Game Courier section? If there is a way to play I might like to try. I just don't know if that can be done here. At chess.com we often play by showing a diagram after each move which is pretty easy to do.
But helping with beta testing is definitely possible - I just need to know what you mean.:)
 

Chess on an Infinite Plane (hidden). Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Feb 28, 2017 10:11 PM UTC:
Hi Aurelian,
The hawks and pawns in the rearward flanks are called "jäger units". They probably will not be useful in the opening or early mid-game, because these pieces do not move quickly. But the added material can be helpful later to help force a checkmate, or as added material to help break a game that is otherwise tending towards a draw. (Like a baseball game going into extra innings). As an illustration:
 
If we label the main frontal formation as "M", and the jäger units as "J1" and "J2", a SHORT game might go like this:
white "M" plays against black "M". Black wins (for example).
 
But if a game is near tied in the mid-game, it might finish like this:
white "M" plays against black "M". Neither side achieves an advantage, so:
white "J1" plays against black "J1". White wins with a checkmate by chancellor, rook, and hawk (for example).
 
But if a game is STILL tending towards a draw even after long play, a game might finish like this:
white "M" plays against black "M". Neither side creates an advantage, so:
white "J1" plays against black "J1". Neither side still has an advantage, so:
white "J2" plays against black "J2". Black wins with checkmate by a hawk and two promoted pawns (for example).
 
In actual play, a game will never play with such distinct delineation. A real game may go more like this:
white "M, J1, J2" play against black "M, J1, J2", and all the pieces are in a big complex mess. One side finds a checkmate and wins (for example).
 
In actual games, I have no idea how often experienced players will draw. The game is complicated enough that I think the draw rate will probably be about the same as normal chess (and just as in normal chess, the result of perfect play is unknown).
 
I'm currently not in any games with the huygens, but would like to play it once I finish one of my current games. I would also like to try ChessV (and watch some Apothecary games) as soon as I finish at least one game I'm currently in.
 
Thanks for your comments. :)

💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Mar 3, 2017 09:54 PM UTC:
Thanks Aurelian,
That was just posted yesterday? I watched it and read some of the comments. I'll have to read everything again to understand it better. The video makes the assumption that chess is never a draw but they didn't explain how the rules are changed to enforce this. One comment someone added says for example if it is your turn and you have no legal moves, you lose. This is normally a stalemate including in "Chess on an Infinite Plane".
I think this video and all the comments make infinite chess seem more complicated than it really is. It's really not too different than normal chess. Good play means both players will try to control the center of the chessboard, so there's a tendency for pieces to move inward (not drift away). However attacks from behind are possible, and you need a few more pieces to create a checkmate. So pieces may temporarily move outward, but there's no reason to ever go extremelly far.
 
However, in the version with the huygens, it is mathematically possible for things to get a little more complicated I think. Anyway, thanks so much for sharing the link. I will definitely view it again and read the comments to make sure I understand it. :)

The birth of two variants: Apothecary chess 1 & Apothecary chess 2[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Mar 4, 2017 06:13 PM UTC:
I like these rules a lot, but I have some comments:
Why does the losing side get a point? This player hasn't demonstrated anything, not even able to get a draw (of any type). A player who offers to play, then resigns after one move would get a point, just wasting everyone's time.
 
Although rare, should drawing twice be equivalent to one win and one loss? If so, a draw should be 4.5 points. If playing from black, a draw should definitely be considered at least half a win (especially if the win is from white).
 
Last, I'm not sure about the 3-fold repetition. I don't think this should let the game move to the point system. If the superior side knows he/she is better, then this player should be required to keep playing to prove he has a better position. He can do this by not moving into a repeated position for the third time.
 
I believe the five tiers would then be:
9 - win
6 - advantage (stalemate - superior side, or point count 4 or more)
4.5? - draw (point count is 3 or less)
3 - disadvantage (stalemate - inferior side)
0 - loss
(only the 150 moves with no progress leads to the point system)
 
I hate to bring up so many comments, but I like your idea and just want to make sure everything is considered thoroughly, especially if any tournament is held using the system.
Good work!:)

V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Mar 5, 2017 05:48 PM UTC:
Hi George,
I wrote about the Huygens in a comment, but it's not an entry in the CVP "Piececlopedia". I might like to submit it later, but I already have one game waiting for review (it's called "Trappist-1" which is the Infinite Plane game using the Huygens chess piece). I've heard about the Fibonacci series but not Lucas. What is the Lucas about?

Hi Aurelian,
I agree repetitions in chess can be complicated, and often difficult to discern if it should be a draw, or if one side is better. Usually it doesn't have to occur in chess. There's always another move, and if not, then it's a stalemate.
So if there is a repetition opportunity, one player or the other can simply make a different move. Repeating is only an advantage for the side that believes he/she is weaker and wants to get a draw. The side that is strong should PROVE he is stronger by not repeating, and win the game.
So neither player should be allowed to jump to the point system and get an "advantage" by repeating a position. If one player believes he is stronger, he should be requried to keep playing to prove his advantage. But if he doesn't think his position is strong enough, then he can repeat the position, but should get no credit for this. He only gets a "draw" for essentially "Giving Up".
(Basically my theme is players must keep playing if they can, but if they give up, then they get no credit).
Let me know what your think. Either way is OK, but it's just my opinion.
Regards, :)
 
 

Chess on an Infinite Plane (hidden). Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Mar 8, 2017 05:39 PM UTC:

Thank Fergus,

I changed the title and now it looks better and more simple. The game introduction still mentions that it uses your piece shapes. I like the abstract icons a lot, and for this game where it's necessary to display a large board area, it's easy to identify the pieces even when you "zoom out".

I also have another game which is played on an infinite board called "Trappist-1". It also uses your piece icons, including one of the shapes for the huygens (a piece which jumps prime numbers of squares).

The game is pending review, and I hope it's posted on this site soon.

Regards :)


Trappist-1. Chess game with no boundaries. includes Guard, Chancellor, Hawk, and Huygens. () [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Mar 8, 2017 09:41 PM UTC:

Hi Fergus, Thanks for your comments.

About the piece images, I think the ones used make a lot of sense, because they match your abstract styles very well. The orthodox pieces all follow the normal shapes in your set. But since some unusual pieces are used, I selected piece shapes that best represent what they do.

For the guard (or "mann") I used the circle shape with triangle, to indicate it moves both orthogonally, and diagonally. It is a very basic shape just as the king (which has the same moves).

Your set does not have a hawk, so I used the tall triangle shape because it appears "sharp", just as a hawk has sharp talons and beak.

Also, there is no huygens, so I chose the pyramid shape piece with the "+" shape cut-out. The pyramid is a symbol of mystery, just like prime numbers, and the "+" shape represents the orthogonal moves of the huygens.

I hope you'll agree that these images are good choices for both "Trappist-1" and "Chess on an Infinite Plane".

Last, on the topic of playing on an Infinite Plane, a player can move a piece 50-million squares away. There is no problem with that (although the play would be questionable at best). If someone does this, the piece simply is not shown in the chess diagram. There is only a supplemental note added to the game status such as "white rook is in square (50,000,000, 2)". (file and rank of the piece). But in actual play, I don't believe there is ever any reason to move a piece this far away because there is nothing of interest so far out. The piece would be less effective at attacking because it could not create forks.

In all the games played so far, the farthest span of pieces ever played was 36 ranks I believe. Then the distant pieces moved back in. (I'll send you a link if you'd like to see the game's moves).

Anyway, thanks so much for your comments. I really appreciate them. There's currently several games in progress.


Chess on an Infinite Plane (hidden). Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Mar 8, 2017 11:46 PM UTC:

Thanks Fergus. I replied on the page for Trappist-1. Will you release that page so it can be viewed publicly? If anyone else is interested it will let them see about the development of Chess on an Infinite Plane (if there's any revisions), and also Trappist-1. Both games are already being played.

Thanks so much! :)


Chess on an Infinite Plane. Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk. () [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Mar 9, 2017 01:07 AM UTC:

Thanks Ben,

I did update the images to the CVP site, and updated the links. It looks fine now. This same game was also released with Fergus' abstract icons, but I'd like to show the game with both pieces sets.

The game is already being played with the classic icons (this submission), and some people might prefer this style because it looks much more similar to the normal chess pieces.

Thanks for your support!


Chess on an Infinite Plane (hidden). Chess game with no boundaries (infinite board), and Guard, Chancellor, and Hawk.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Mar 14, 2017 09:56 PM UTC:
Hi Fergus, thanks for your comments at the thread for "Trappist-1" (which is still hidden until an editor releases it). I'll comment here about the idea of someone moving a chess piece "50-million squares away".
 
That is actually not a problem in the game (although the strategy of doing so would be questionable at best). If someone wants to make a move such as this, the piece simply is not shown in the chess diagram. There is only a supplemental note added to the game status such as "white rook is in square (50,000,000, 2)". (file and rank of the piece). But in actual play, I don't believe there is ever any reason to move a piece this far away because there is nothing of interest so far out. The piece would be less effective at attacking because it could not create forks.
 
In all the games I've seen or played, the farthest span of pieces is 36 ranks I believe. Eventually the distant pieces moved back in (or the game is won by one side at this point).
 
Anyway, thanks so much for your comments. I really appreciate them. There's currently several games in progress. I hope you'll be able to release the game instructions soon. Other people may have good comments too, and it will let everyone be able to share in the insights that I am learning from the game, and possibly other players also.
 
Thanks again!

TessChess. 4D chess featuring symmetrically-moving pieces. (4x(4x(4x4)), Cells: 256) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Mar 24, 2017 02:05 AM UTC:
I don't quite understand this (but it looks intriguing). I assume layer A is above layer B, which is above C, which is above D. (correct?)
But what is the relation between the sets of ranks 11-14, 21-24, 31-34, and 41-44?
Can a rook on Ab-11 move to Ab-(any number)? If not, how does a rook on Ab-11 get to Ab-44? (assuming not blocked)?

New editor[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Mar 27, 2017 03:52 PM UTC:

Welcome to the Chess Variant Pages Greg!

An editor who wrote a program that plays chess gives this forum excellent credibility!!

:)


ChessVA computer program
. Program for playing numerous Chess variants against your PC.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Mar 27, 2017 04:00 PM UTC:

I noticed that ChessV plays two multi-move variants (Marseillais Chess and Doublemove Chess).

Does anyone have a good record of played games for either of these (either human play or computer play)? It seems the games are usually very short. I was wondering what the average length of play would be for games of these variants.

I've been thinking of trying a game of "Chess on an Infinite Plane" where double-moves are allowed, or maybe only double-moves of pawns, or pawn plus one other piece. A link to the game is here):

Chess on an Infinite Plane

If anyone has info on analysis (computer or otherwise) for multi-move games I would love to learn about it!


V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Mar 30, 2017 01:42 AM UTC:

OK, thanks for answering. In a few weeks I might try ChessV.

I noticed the package includes Fairy-Max. Does ChessV and Fairy-Max share any code, or are they distinct programs?

Regards, :)


V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Mar 30, 2017 04:05 AM UTC:
Thanks Greg,
I've already tried Fairy-Max, and I used it to estimate (or confirm) the value of a guard (Mann) by playing a few hundred (computer vs. computer) games. (For example playing games with an asymmetry of 2 guards against a bishop and a knight. I forgot the specific results but if anyone is interested i can dig it up easily)
 
I'm currently trying to setup a chess game with teams of Chess on an Infinite Plane at the chess.com website. I like the infinite board mainly because no software plays it yet. I know for sure all moves are from human play only.
(If anyone reads this and is interested please leave a comment.)
 
It won't be the same as "Kasparov versus the World" where 50,000 people participated. But help during the game from passers-by is allowed (joining one team or the other).
 
Thanks for your information. Once I finish some current games I'm in I definitely plan to try ChessV.
:)

Cataclysm. Large board game with short-range pieces designed to be dramatic without being overly complicated or dragging on too long. (12x16, Cells: 192) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Apr 5, 2017 02:29 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
In the notes to this game, it says this game has rotational symmetry rather than mirror symmetry. That does not appear correct based on the setup diagram. Even the king and queen face each other, each sharing the same file as in classical chess. Was the graphic updated, or am I missing something?
 
It does look like an excellent large-format variant. Does anyone know if ChessV plays it (and if so, how well)?

Chess with Different Armies. Betza's classic variant where white and black play with different sets of pieces. (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Apr 5, 2017 02:30 PM UTC:

After reading these comments I became curious what graphic set is used for Chess with different armies (the version shown on this thread). I couldn't find out. Does anyone know?
 


V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Apr 5, 2017 10:05 PM UTC:

Thanks Fergus,

It looks like there's a big set of Alfaerie graphics. I was looking for a war machine icon that I saw somewhere, and i was able to find it. In fact, there's a few versions. I appreciate it.

Thanks! :)


Cataclysm. Large board game with short-range pieces designed to be dramatic without being overly complicated or dragging on too long. (12x16, Cells: 192) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Apr 6, 2017 07:19 PM UTC:
Thanks Greg,
I just wanted to make sure I understood the defintion of mirror symmetry.
I definitely think multiple moves per turn is something to continue exploring (not necessarily in chess engines, but in the games).

I've thought about adding the feature to Trappist-1 (version of Chess on an Infinite Plane). It will help correspondence games go faster when only one move is played per day. Of course it also changes the strategy. The opening and mid-game will go-by faster, and then the final "clash" can be much more damaging.
Theres are some game notations on this site with double-moves, but all are very short (like 10-15 moves). But with a large format game I think it can work really well, and with Cataclysm, using it for selective pieces (just pawns) is a great idea.:)

ChessVA computer program
. Program for playing numerous Chess variants against your PC.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 7, 2017 02:23 AM UTC:

I just installed chessV and I already really like it a lot! It uploads quickly, and installed with no problems. It seems like an awesome program. I like how games are categorized, making it easy to find games, and includes an index with each game's history.  Great work! I'm gonna really enjoy using it!

(I also saw Aurelian's Enep on it too!)


 


The huygens chess piece (submitting to be catalogued in the Piececlopedia)[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 7, 2017 03:07 AM UTC:
To Fergus, Greg, and all others concerned,
I would like to submit a piece to the CVP Piececlopedia, and hope you can add it to the catalog.
The chess piece is the Huygens and is played in Trappist-1 and can also be played in variations of Chess on an Infinite Plane .
Including this piece in Piececlopedia will help demonstrate that CVP remains focused on keeping the catalog up-to-date, especially with new pieces that bring new tactical concepts to variant chess games. The huygens is also a piece which is interesting to mathemeticians doing work in the field of game theory, including those who study chess games played on an infinite chessboard.
(Aurelian pointed out to me the YouTube video about Infinite Chess which has become widely popular among chess players. For those who have not seen it can view it here):
 
YouTube Video - Infinite Chess
 
Two graphics of the huygens are shown here. The first was designed by Fergus Duniho. Other details are below.
 
Name: Huygens
History: Named after Christiaan Huygens, a prominent Dutch mathematician and astonomer. Chess piece invented by vickalan, and was first used in mid-2016.
Movement: The huygens jumps prime numbers of squares in orthogonal directions (so jumps 2, 3, 5, 7, 11,...squares). It is sometimes played with a different minimum jump distance, so that it is not a close-attacking piece.
Note: One graphic of the huygens was designed by Fergus Duniho, and was originally specified as a king-bishop (from the Abstract Piece Set). It is also used as the huygens, such as in Trappist-1.
Thank you for considering this piece for CVP's Piececlopedia.

Marseillais Chess. Move twice per turn. (8x8, Cells: 64) (Recognized!)[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 7, 2017 04:33 AM UTC:
Thanks Greg,
I think it was me who made the request (I was wondering about games with double-moves). A game with 23 moves is not really very long, so the double-move does shorten the game. (But it's not too short that the play becomes unfair or non strategic).
I did just recently upload ChessV so now I can do my own analysis. I might try to to do a study similar to what you just did.
Btw, 4 other games listed here lasted 4, 7, 19, and 13 moves. So I assume ChessV played better (like two equally matched opponents). The other possibility is that ChessV played worse, but worse in an equal way (but I doubt that).
One question: Why did the analysis take 12 hours? I know looking into the game tree takes many cycles, but that seems like a really deep analysis. Is that the normal time required to get best play from ChessV?

V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 7, 2017 04:52 PM UTC:
That's interesing. 12 hours is a big jump from the default value of 5 minutes (144x to be exact). But a small default makes sense, so you can play a fast game first, then set it to more acurate play later if you're ready.
 
When you did the 12 hour test, did you set the Minutes to 720, or did you just run the game "unlimited"?
I also like the 12x12 chess game option.  That is a game I'm going to play and study.  It's basically the same as chess but with 2 extra files or ranks around the perimeter. Therefore it represents an intermediate point between chess and chess on an infinite plane . One thing I've been curious about is if good play ever involves trying to go around your opponents pieces, and attack from behind. Obviously you lose tempo, but the advantage is the back is not guarded by pawns.

The huygens chess piece (submitting to be catalogued in the Piececlopedia)[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 7, 2017 06:07 PM UTC:
Is the Piececlopedia database considered accurate? I did a search to see how often new pieces are added, or pages updated. For the last five years this is what I got:
 
New pieces:   0
Edited pages: 3
 
Is this right?

V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 7, 2017 07:50 PM UTC:
Thanks Ben, I appreciate the information. Can I submit the information (original post) to be added as an Article "The Huygens"? I checked the articles for other chess pieces, and there's 19 total, not including the "atoms". The newest article was written 19 years ago. About ten of the pieces have interesting but generic names, such as:
Furlrurlbakking
Forfnibakking
Fibnif
mAW
fFbW
Fibnif plus Rook
B4nD
N2R4
Forfnifurlrurking
I think the Huygens will add fresh new variety to the collection of CVP's articles. It will be one of the few pieces that is known by its formal name rather than a generic name. It will also be the first piece at CVP designed specifically to be played on on infinite chessboard (which is beginning to draw attention, even from non-chess players).
 
Infinite Chess on YouTube
 
Please let me know if the Huygens can be added to CVP's chess piece articles soon. If there's any other information you need about it please let me know.
Regards,

V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 7, 2017 09:35 PM UTC:
Oh, thanks Ben. I see the main heading for piece articles now. I also found this which appears to be a separate "archive" of some pieces (not sure):
http://www.chessvariants.com/d.betza/chessvar/pieces/index.html
Fergus, let me know what I should so next. The front page of CVP has a link "How you can help - Submitting content" I'm trying to follow the instructions the best I can. I hope the Huygens can be cataloged soon. One of the images originated from your work, and maybe soon it will be in a YouTube video about Infinte Chess with the Huygens"!
 
Name: Huygens
History: Named after Christiaan Huygens, a prominent Dutch mathematician and astonomer. Chess piece invented by vickalan, and was first used in mid-2016.
Movement: The huygens jumps prime numbers of squares in orthogonal directions (so jumps 2, 3, 5, 7, 11,...squares). It is sometimes played with a different minimum jump distance, so that it is not a close-attacking piece.
Note: One graphic of the huygens was designed by Fergus Duniho, and was originally specified as a king-bishop (from the Abstract Piece Set). It is also used as the huygens, such as in Trappist-1.
Thank you for considering this piece for CVP's Piececlopedia.
Best regards,

Maneuvering a Huygens on a Chessboard[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Apr 8, 2017 05:40 PM UTC:

A huygens is chess piece that jumps in the directions of a rook any prime number of squares. In this discussion, I also impose the limit that it has a minimum jump distance of 5 or more squares (as it is used in Trappist-1 ).

So this huygens jumps distances of 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97... and so on. Its icons are shown here:

Icon 1 - by Fergus Duniho.

Icon 2 - Scientific Version

Just like a knight sometimes has trouble moving to a certain square (like requiring 4 jumps to move to a square 2 squares up and 2 left), moving a huygens can also take a few jumps to move to certain squares. Moving an odd number of squares can be tricky if the number isn't prime, because the sum of two primes is always even (unless one of the numbers is 2, but the huygens here can't jump 2 squares). So in these cases, a huygens needs to make 3 jumps to get to a particular square.

When moving an even number of squares, I think it would usually take 2 jumps. But I don't know if there is a way to prove this for every even-numbered move. It is currently unknown if every even integer can be expressed as the sum of two primes. In the 1700's Christian Goldbach believed it was true but couldn't prove it. Today it is still an unsolved problem and is known as the Goldbach Conjecture.

So if you are playing a game of chess with the huygens, don't always assume that you can move an even number of squares in two jumps. There may be some rare cases where three jumps are required. But shorter moves are usually not a problem to figure out. Here's a summary I believe is usually true:
  If the distance is prime (5 or more) the huygens can move there in one jump.
  If the distance is even, the huygens can get there in two jumps (always or almost always true)
  If the distance is odd and not prime, it will require three jumps
The list below shows how to do it for distances up to 40. This may not include every possible method for each distance. For some short moves, it is necessary to overjump the destination, and them move back.

(Move/Leap distances to make the move):
1  (5,7,-11)
2  (7,-5)
3  (5,11,-13)
4  (11,-7)
5  (5)
6  (11,-5)
7  (7)
8  (13,-5)
9  (5,11,-7)
10 (5,5) or (17,-7)
11 (11)
12 (5,7)
13 (13)
14 (7,7)
15 (5,5,5)
16 (5,11)
17 (17)
18 (5,13) or (7,11)
19 (19)
20 (7,13)
21 (7,7,7)
22 (5,17) or (11,11)
23 (23)
24 (5,19) or (7,17) or (11,13)
25 (5,7,13)
26 (7,19) or (13,13)
27 (5,11,11) or (5,5,17) or (7,7,13)
28 (5,23) or (11,17)
29 (29)
30 (7,23) or (11,19) or (13,17)
31 (31)
32 (13,19)
33 (11,11,11)
34 (17,17) or (11,23)
35 (11,11,13)
36 (17,19)
37 (37)
38 (11,11,11,5)
39 (13,19,7)
40 (11,29) or (17,23)

If anyone finds an error or a faster way for any of these moves please leave a reply.


About Game Courier. Web-based system for playing many different variants by email or in real-time.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Apr 9, 2017 01:40 PM UTC:

Agreed. I noticed the same thing.


Maneuvering a Huygens on a Chessboard[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Apr 9, 2017 01:49 PM UTC:

Is this maneuvering problem similar to the knight's tour problem (first discussed in the 9th century)?


About Game Courier. Web-based system for playing many different variants by email or in real-time.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Apr 9, 2017 10:31 PM UTC:

Yup, It seems to work now.

I was even able to add graphics to one of my recent posts.

Thanks Fergus!


Maneuvering a Huygens on a Chessboard[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Apr 10, 2017 09:44 PM UTC:

I've heard of some of those sequences, but not all of them. I had to look up the pancake numbers.

For example, for 4 pancakes, there's 3 ways it might be in an unorganized stack so that it requries 4 flips with a spatula to organize it (from large to small), 11 that require 3, 6 for 2, 3 for 1, and 1 for 0. So a 4 pancake stack gives a pancake sequence of 3, 11, 6, 3, and 1. (Or 1, 3, 6, 11, 3 in reverse order).

But I don't understand the pancake sequence that you showed. It's not a sequence for any stack of pancakes. Am I not on the right path to what a pancake sequence is? Were some pancakes burned and thrown away? Let me know!


V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Apr 11, 2017 02:55 PM UTC:

That's funny. Pancake numbers can come from two ways: stacking them and cutting them! It's making me hungry.

I'll eat and then enjoy web-surfing to learn more about some of the other number sequences you listed!


Yáng Qí. Yankee ingenuity adds new power to Chinese Chess. (9x10, Cells: 90) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Apr 12, 2017 05:42 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

Merging Chinese chess with Western chess was a very ambitious thing to do (altering two orthodox traditions) but I think you've succeeded! I like how you took the plain round disks and replaced them with chess pieces that are easier to discrimate. Good work on this interesting variant!
 


Maneuvering a Huygens on a Chessboard[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Apr 13, 2017 04:22 PM UTC:

OK, today I'll study the lucky numbers, and the wierd numbers from George Duke. (Possible new chess pieces for large chessboards and infinite chess).

I like the Lucky numbers. Once a number is stricken from the list, it can never be added back. The lucky ones remain!


The huygens chess piece (submitting to be catalogued in the Piececlopedia)[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Apr 13, 2017 04:26 PM UTC:

Fergus, Ben, Greg, what's the normal amount of time for CVP to decide if material (such as below, which I also submited at "Post your own Games") can be added to the Piececlopedia or as a side-article?

I know you guys are working on the CKEditor. But the material I posted is pre-formatted, displays correctly, and is ready to go.

The only question is if Fergus is OK with the huygens having his "pyramid" artwork to be used as a piece shape. (If not, then the scientific design can be the primary piece shape).

The article I wrote is complete, but I would also be completelly fine with anyone adding to it, and then it being posted with two authors.

It's time for CVP to have a new piece added to Piececlopedia. It's been awhile since the last one!


Huygens. Members-Only A chess piece (the Huygens).[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]

Since this comment is for a page that has not been published yet, you must be signed in to read it.

The huygens chess piece (submitting to be catalogued in the Piececlopedia)[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 14, 2017 04:30 AM UTC:

Hi Fergus, I'm sorry - I did recieve your e-mail this morning but didn't realize you had sent it. To answer your questions about infinite chess, there are currently a few games in progress and some of them are on public game forums. (One game is a team competition between two groups, with one move being declared about every two days). Infinite chess is also being discussed on math forums, because of how it affects the ability of chess to be analyzed by game theory, and chess-playing software.

I did delete your graphic from my submission, because I will of course respect your artwork if you don't want it used for the huygens.

I also added a mention of Hans Bodlaender, and a link to a page where he discussed infinite chess in 2001. (As you know Hans was very innovative, and it's good to see the current team of editors for CVP continue to carry on his tradition).

I understand that the Piececlopedia is for pieces with a long tradition, so I understand you may not want it included there. But I hope you will make the article about the huygens visible to the public, so that these pages continue to be useful to people who might want to learn more about Infinite Chess, and the pieces that are used with it.

As always, I really appreciate your support.


V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 14, 2017 04:28 PM UTC:

At one chess-playing forum, there are at least two games of my version "Chess on an Infinite Plane" being played. One of them is a team competition (3 players vs. 3 players). Another game in-progress is called "Chess on an Infinite Plane with Huygens Option" which is the same as Trappist-1 (a game described here at CVP).

Also, the huygens has received attention among the math community. An example is at the StackExchange Talk Forum, and also at the Talk Page of Joel Hamkins "A position in infinite chess with game value ω^4".


Please let me know if you'd like me to show any specific links.

Thanks as always Fergus,


We're back[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Apr 18, 2017 07:14 PM UTC:

Thanks Fergus for all your hard work and getting it all running well again! Everything seems fine right now (from where I am and at this point in time).
I know you probably want a rest, or some diversion now. As soon as everything is stable, will you please make sure to remember to take some action or leave me some comment about this:

A submission to CVP


Thanks for all your hard hard work. You are keeping the great tradition of variant chess and fairy chess pieces alive and strong!:)


The birth of two variants: Apothecary chess 1 & Apothecary chess 2[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Apr 19, 2017 06:22 PM UTC:

Hi Aurelian, I'm glad you are feeling better. What was the result of the Wizard being too dangerous? Did it give White too much of an advantage, or some other consequence?


Also, what does the Wizard do. In the notes below it says "steps one step diagonally or makes a (3,1) leap." Is it the ability to attack the 1st (or 8th) rank pieces over the pawns that made it too dangerous?


V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Apr 20, 2017 07:07 AM UTC:

Hi Aurelian and Greg, just to throw in my opinion, I don't think draws are a problem in chess. It's just a 3rd possible outcome.

Games can still be intense and filled with interesting and spectacular play. Here's a good example of an interesting game that ended in draw:

Magnus Carlsen (age 13) vs. Kasparov

See Kasparov shaking his head.

Greg: Btw, I've been enjoying your ChessV program. Excellent work!


V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Apr 20, 2017 07:17 PM UTC:

Thanks for the update. Also, I think it's usually better to work on one game, and release it, rather than two at once.

Also (btw), I think games are fine even if they aren't in ChessV.

ChessV is awesome because you can play games against it, as well as see your moves analyzed. On the other-hand, if you play chess on-line with long time-control, you may always be worried your opponent might be using ChessV to help.

So some games not being in ChessV is good.

Also, we have to keep Greg busy with programming!!


V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Apr 21, 2017 03:00 PM UTC:

One of the last places where he left comments is here:

<< Mullers Short-Range Leaper Law >>

It's a short but useful thread to explain how leaping piece values can be estimated with a formula. I also did some work to try to "disprove or prove" the formula, and I found it to be very accurate (comparing the value of a guard and knight to that of a bishop for example). The formula now takes the name "Muller's Short-Range Leaper Law".

Btw, I like your idea of playing cyborg chess. It is currently being used in one game of "Chess on an Infinite Plane" but unfortunatelly, the computers don't help much because the game has not been well simulated by any code.


The huygens chess piece (submitting to be catalogued in the Piececlopedia)[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Apr 26, 2017 12:38 PM UTC:

Hi Fergus, have you had time to review and release this yet? I'm starting a new article for CVP now but would like to get this piece article released before submitting my next article.  My next article will be a short article about variant chess pieces in general. I hope to have it done in 2 or 3 days. 


Game Courier Tournament 2017. Chess Variant Tournament played on Game Courier in 2017.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Jun 16, 2017 07:19 PM UTC:

Three questions (sorry if these were already answered, but I couldn't immediatelly see these topics in the rules or the thread):

1) There are 7 categories. If we sign-up does that mean we are committed to playing seven games (1 in each category)? We play only one game at a time?

2) If we have an extended time without access to internet (travel or work assignment) can we use "spare time" while game is on-hold?

3) Is computer-assistance allowed (I haven't checked, but I believe some of these games can be played on chess engines).

Thanks:)


V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Jun 17, 2017 02:26 AM UTC:

Thank Fergus,

(Q1) Playing eight games concurently with time-control (4 moves/week) is playing an average of 4.6 moves per day. Obviously it would be good to learn all the games rules before-hand. That's a bit much to learn "on-the-fly".

(Q2) Thanks for the answer.

(Q3) Thanks. Someone on one of these forums once mentioned cyborg chess, and I wasn't sure if that was the format. A format (human + computer) vs (human + computer) could be fun too. I just wanted to know for sure (better to know the rules before the game starts rather than in the middle of the game).

Playing eight games concurently is a bit much for me with my other commitments, but sounds fun. Good luck!!


V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Jun 18, 2017 04:26 AM UTC:

Thanks Greg for the clarifications. I'll sit this tournament out, but it does look like fun.

Some time I would like to play an engine-assisted game. Might be interesting for a game on a large board, like chess on a 12x12 board. I've always been curious if a flank attack (attack from behind the king) can be well-executed. It takes extra moves to get there, but the defense from that angle might be weaker.

Have fun in the tournament.:)


Chess and a Half. Game with extra leapers.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Jul 10, 2017 05:53 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

This looks like an interesting game, and I like many aspects of it - including its large size, good blend of traditional and new pieces, and clean crisp graphics. They work together well to create an interesting and appealing game.

I was wondering what it would take to play this engine-vs-engine.

The first thing I noticed is that CVPs page on ChessV brings up an error. Is this related to the recent server move?

I've also read that ChessV has a scripting option, which might allow custom variants to be entered and played. Is this game (Chess and a half) within the possibility to enter as a script? I've never tried anything like that, but I'm always willing to try new things.

Lastly, I know that custom variants can be entered to Fairy-Max. Does anyone know off-hand if this variant is within the size limit of Fairy-Max?

With a little bit of work, I MIGHT be able to get an engine-vs-engine game going of this variant. That would be really awesome. Why play myself, if I can let an engine do the work???


V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Jul 11, 2017 03:54 PM UTC:

Thanks for the info. I did suspect that this game for a few reasons is pressing the limits of what variant chess engines can play. (Games will always be ahead of engines, if for no other reason that nobody makes an engine before the game. Plus, I'm sure programming is not a fast easy task, especially for chess).

HGMuller: Keep us up-to-date when HaChu is released!

Greg: I didn't know that a link to ChessV is in the "Play" menu. In an internal (CVP) search for ChessV, results for both pages come up (plus less related pages). Users will have a 50/50 chance of finding a useful page on the first try.

About "Chess and a Half". This board is 1.5x as wide as a normal chessboard - is that why it's "Chess and Half"? At this size it has 144 squares, so has 144/64 = 2.25 times as many squares. Not counting the new pieces, I think this is massivelly more complex than ordinary chess. Btw: I like how you kept the tradition "queen starts on her own color", and I also like how each of the two knight face in opposite directions. Even late in the game, when there's just one knight of a color, you can know which one survived.

Even the minutiae appears to be well-thought out. Great work!


V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Jul 14, 2017 04:07 PM UTC:

Maybe rules 5, 7, and 8 should just be eliminated. Then the game would have the quality that the graphics are clean, crisp, and interesting, and the rules are simple and concise.

Only the game is mathematically complex (due to large size and extra pieces).


Polymorph Chess. Knights and Bishops can morph into each other or into combined pieces. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Jul 16, 2017 05:57 AM UTC:

Should there be an image with the page for Polymorph Chess? In my view, the top half of the page is blank.

Or since the starting setup can look like chess there is no diagram?

The game does sound interesting. Only once have I played a variant where chess pieces can convert to another piece. In Waterloo a knight can merge with an "elite-guard" to form a "joker". It was a rather elaborate game, and I'm scheduled to play it again in a few weeks. Games with one or two morphing/merging piece abilities can be fun.:)


Chess and a Half. Game with extra leapers.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Jul 18, 2017 01:50 PM UTC:

With the rule changes I think this is now a nearly perfectly designed variant.

Chess is already a very complicated game in the sense of being able to "calculate" moves. Even normal chess cannot be perfectly calculated even if a modern engine had the support of supercomputers.

So in my opinion, it is never necessary to purposelly add rules simply for the sake of "adding complexity" (similar to Greg's comments). The complexity in chess is already inherent in the game itself. (For this same reason, I never add ice cubes to beer, and my coffee is not adulterated with extra flavorings).

This variant now has all the elements of a well-designed game: simple and clean graphics, good mix of traditional and new pieces, rooks placed traditionally at the corners, etc. The pawns also being allowed to make up to an initial quadruple-step, and knights a double-step is also good due to the large board.

Now just two more comments:

1) Nicolino says that pawns can't promote to Star Cat because that would be an overwhelming power increase. Using HGMuller's formula (value = 1.1*N*(30 +(5/8)*N), centipawns) the Star Cat should be worth about 12 points. I don't think that's too much, especially with the large board. But a reason to not allow it might be that the game already starts with 4 Cats and 4 Star-Cats, so promoting to queens or other pieces forces more variety on the board.

2) Also, with the rule clarifications/changes, I believe that Fairy-Max can be setup to play this game (please correct me if I'm wrong). Greg also said that after "play testing" this game in theory could be added to ChessV (a future possibility?) So for the sake of discussion could Fairy-Max be set-up to use one ChessV engine, or vice-versa? If so, an engine-vs-engine game (different codes) might be possible. That would be really interesting, especially for a game that is just barelly within the range of the engines that I'm aware of.

One final minor note: Rule#3 has a typo ("becuase" -> "because").

Good work on the game Nicolino!


V. Reinhart wrote on Tue, Jul 18, 2017 05:58 PM UTC:

I believe it just means that that the Cat and Star-Cat can capture pieces within its intermediate move pattern. So for example a Star Cat on d4 can capture pieces on e5, f6, and g7 (in one move).

But being optional is interesting. I think it would be uncommon for one of the cats to not want to capture a piece while jumping over it. But there may be situations, for example to leave an opponent's pawn in place if the pawn is blocking a slider from attacking a more valuable piece.

I just realized it also probably means that Fairy-Max can't play this. And my estimate for the value of a Star-Cat may be low, due to multi-capture ability.

But since it's not a long distance mover, I don't think it has overwhelming power, and would still play perfectly in this game.


V. Reinhart wrote on Wed, Jul 19, 2017 05:47 AM UTC:

Kevin, thanks for your information about piece values. Your comment about a queen being more powerful on larger boards is interesting, and a good point.

A few months ago I used HGMuller's Fairy-Max to play a bunch of games to estimate the value of a guard (to confirm or dispute HGMuller's earlier work). I did it on a 10x8 board, and used the 4 extra squares for pieces to add guards and/or minor pieces. From these tests, I found that a guard is very nearly equal to a bishop, and slightly superior to a knight. (let me know if anyone would like more info about test details).

Nicolino, I hope you don't get rid of any of the Star Cats just because of their power.

This is a big board, so there's room for a few powerful pieces. Opponents have plenty of room to maneuver, create defenses, avoid attacks, and to create counter-attacks.

Btw, even though HGMuller's formula applies only to short-range leapers, I suspect it still might be good for pieces which jump up to 3 squares away when played on a large board.

Long range jumpers on a small board have the problem that long jumps go "off the board". But on a large board, attack points are more likely to useful, possibly helping the formula to remain accurate.

Maybe within a week or two, I'll calculate the "power density" of this game. It's a method I've used to determine the relative power of all pieces as a ratio to board size, and compare it with other games. I believe it's a useful measure of how "dynamic" the play can be expected to be. I'll update here if/when I finish the calculation.


V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Jul 20, 2017 02:16 AM UTC:

Joe Joyce (and others interested):

Here's the details of my tests to estimate the value of a guard. Using Fairy-Max, I set up games on a 10x8 board. Pieces on each side placed as: RXNBQKBNXR.

X represents a variable piece, which was always different between black and white.
For example, black might have X = two knights and white has X = two guards (or vice-versa). Then I ran games (engine vs. engine with long time control) and kept track of scores. In all cases the armies were switched (W/B) so that half the games were each way. (scores are based on win = 1, draw = 0.5, loss = 0).

First, one problem in setting up a test is that Fairy-Max requires all pieces to have an assigned value, and going into a test the assigned value of a guard is unknown.

The first approximatelly 200 games were to "hunt" for the guard's best assigned value. I found guards play best with an assigned value between 300 and 375. Within this range games were not sensitive to their assigned value. But if the assigned value is lower (tested 250) or higher (tested 400) then guards don't help their side to play well (and these results are discarded from the final summary).

An Overall Summary of only games where guards have this "optimal" assigned value (300, 350, or 375):

asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 2 bishops]
guards win (score) = 40/80 = 50.0%

asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 2 knights]
guards win (score) = 46/80 = 57.5%

asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 1 bishop and 1 knight]
guards win (score) = 101/200 = 50.5%

Conclusion (on a 10x8 board, with other FIDE chess pieces):
A guard's value is:
1) equal to a bishop.
2) slightly superior to a knight.

If any questions or comments feel free to leave a message.


V. Reinhart wrote on Sat, Jul 22, 2017 07:57 PM UTC:

HGMuller's formula is interesting, and it's good to see there's a way to expand its scope by using ELC. Muller presented the formula as:

  value = 33*ELC + (33*ELC)*(33*ELC)/1584)

I prefer it a little more as:

  value = 33*ELC + 0.6875*(ELC)^2

In this form the variable occurs once for its linear component (33xELC) and once for its polynomial component (0.6875*(ELC)^2).

But this is just a minor stylistic preference. More generally, it's very interesting that a rather simple formula can be quite accurate for a wide range of leapers. Not sure if there's any future possibility (by Muller or others) to ammend it for longer range leapers. Of course, work like this always requires a lot of engine analysis, and follow-up evaluation of the data.

Good work on the formula!

Btw, do we know that Lasker's estimate of a king's value in an endgame (4) might not be too far off? The study that I did (which basically just confirmed previous work by Muller) was to estimate the value of a guard/commoner for the entirety of a chess-game (10x8 board).

From my study alone, I cannot dispute Lasker's estimate. As far as I know, it might be possible that a non-royal king might be worth a little more on an 8x8 board, and yet a little more in an end-game only situation.


V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Jul 23, 2017 04:41 AM UTC:

As mentioned before, I completed a calculation of the "Material Power Density" for "Chess and a Half".

First, to explain what this ratio is - it is simply the sum of the value of all chess pieces on the board, divided by the playing area (number of squares).

This paramater may give some prediction of the style of play that can be expected from a game. Higher density usually means pieces have more attacking possibilities, and games can enter into dynamic attacks quickly - requiring fast responses from the other side. A lower density means that the opening development may last longer, with a stronger focus (for example) on the placement of pawns.

From lowest to highest is the "Material Power Density" of several games I've analyzed, with "Chess and a Half" now added in the list.

                     Board         Number   Piece    Power    Ratio to
                     Size (sqs)    of Pcs.  Density  Density  Classical Chess
———————————————————— ————————————  ———————  ———————  ———————  ———————————————
Classical Chess      8 x 8 =  64   32       50%      1.34     1.00
Infinite Plane(1)            360   76       21%      0.56     0.42
A Chess Endgame(2)   8 x 8 =  64    7      (11%)     0.64     0.48
Chess and a Half     12 x 12= 144  48       33%      1.04     0.78
Bulldog Legacy Chess 10 x 8 = 80   36       45%      1.10     0.82
Bulldog Chess        10 x 8 = 80   40       50%      1.31     0.98
Bulldog Chess(Witch) 10 x 8 = 80   40       50%      1.35     1.01
Janus Chess          10 x 8 = 80   40       50%      1.53     1.14
Capablanca Chess     10 x 8 = 80   40       50%      1.55     1.16
Seirawan Chess(3)    8 x 8 =  64   36      [56%]     1.88     1.40
Musketeer Chess(4)   8 x 8 =  64   36      [56%]     1.88     1.40
Chu Shogi            12 x 12= 144  92      [64%]     1.91     1.43
Amsterdam Chess      11 x 8 = 88   44       50%      1.95     1.46
Waterloo Chess       10 x 10= 100  60      [60%]     2.72     2.03


(1) - Chess on an Infinite Plane: Play is assumed to be in an 18 x 20 range. This is the horizontal span and 2 ranks less than the vertical span of the outermost pieces (starting position). Little play is presumed to take place in the outermost ranks except for pieces moving inward.
(2) - A chess endgame: A sample 7-piece ending with KQRR vs. KQR.
(3) - Seirawan and Musketeer Chess: Data assumes all pieces are on board. Some pieces are introduced early or later in the game.
(4) - Musketeer Chess: Assumes game with archbishop and chancellor played as the new pieces.

Chess and Half (4th in list) is interesting in that is has a very low piece density (48 pieces on 144 squares), and the material density is 78% compared to that of chess (100%). This is in the range of games that have become my favorite to play. They usually feature an opening with time for tactical development, rather than the players always reacting only to exact threats from the opponent.

I've seen plenty of variants where the dynamics suffer from too much power concentrated into a normal size chess board.  I would really like to try this game sometime, and as mentioned, if it's ever withing the scope of a chess engine, see if a human can win, or how two engines do against each other.


V. Reinhart wrote on Sun, Jul 23, 2017 03:16 PM UTC:

I agree that the concept of power density involves some assumptions that might cause the value to be an approximation. As you mentioned, it does assume that pieces have fixed values, even with a different mix of pieces, and different board sizes.

I do believe that if every game has a mix of pieces (as they do), such errors would tend to cancel out. For example, as board size changes, some pieces might gain slightly in value, while others lose value.

The only way to overcome such possible errors is if there was an accurate way to identify a piece's value based on the specific board size. I'm not aware of any work that has been completed to do this for a range of board sizes. At best, maybe we know the rough difference in value of a few pieces when they go from an 8x8 to 10x8 board. To my knowledge, there is no piece which has its value altered by such a large amount that it would render power density as grossly innacurate.

I believe the biggest error currently found in the power density table is the data for Chess on an Infinite Plane . Here a board size of 18 x 20 was assumed because it's the approximate span of pieces in the starting position. But the bulk of the dynamics in actual play is usually found in a much smaller area.

In fact, the tendency of pieces to try to "fight for the center" might be a phenomenon seen in all games, so the stated "board sizes" themselves might be an opportunity for refinement. But I'm reluctant to complicate the formula based only on conjecture. As we learn more about piece valuations for variant chess, I certainly can plan to refine the formula when there is merit to do so. For now, it's based on the theory that "Simple and approximate" is better than "Complex with speculation".


V. Reinhart wrote on Mon, Jul 24, 2017 01:50 PM UTC:

There may have been some differences in the test setup, for example HGM's test may have been on an 8x8 board where one side had the bishops removed altogether, and replaced by guards (commoners).

Maybe an army likes to have bishops and guards working together, but if the bishops are removed and replaced with guards, the army is slightly worse than the one that still has the bishops? Maybe HGM will shed some light on his specific test set-up, or the scope of his conclusion.

Note all tests by me were done with HGM's Fairy-Max engine, which is very well-designed for playing these types of pieces.


Game Courier Tournament 2017. Chess Variant Tournament played on Game Courier in 2017.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Aug 11, 2017 04:19 AM UTC:

Just curious about something - is there anyway for a spectator to easily see the status of this tournament, or is it necessary for interested passers-by to seek through the individual games to see who's emerging as the leaders?
 


V. Reinhart wrote on Fri, Aug 11, 2017 01:04 PM UTC:

Oh Thanks. Sorry I didn't notice. Congratulations to all the players!

I'll probably check back occasionally - this is interesting!


Captive Kings. Created to obtain more wins and less draws with an anti-chess chess rule.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
V. Reinhart wrote on Thu, Sep 14, 2017 05:13 PM UTC:

If the idea is to keep the opponent king trapped, and to rescue your own king, why did both White and Black let the opponent kings escape on the first move?

Wouldn't it make more sense to keep your opponent's king trapped for as long as possible?


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