Comments by vickalan
The Mann is also used in Waterloo Chess and Amsterdam Medieval Chess (called spy) and "Chess on an Infinite Plane" and "Bulldog Chess" (called guard). I'm in a few games using a guard but no one is sure what it's worth. Fair exchange for a bishop or knight, or is it worth more than that?
But the icon we're using for the Mann (Guard) doesn't look anything like the images shown on this page. Is there any way I can submit an image to this forum, and someone can add it to this page? Or another idea is to make a new page dedicated just to the Guard. It's a very popular piece in chess variant games.
Evans 3½ 3½+ 5 10 4
http://hgm.nubati.net/variants/amsterdam
Thanks Kevin for the information.
I recently started using Fairy-Max, and did a test to try to confirm HGMuller's information. Using guards on a 10 x 8 board, each test starts with at least 2 knights and 2 bishops for each side, and guards on only one side.
asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 2 bishops]
guards win (score) = 40/80 = 50.0%
asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 2 knights]
guards win (score) = 46/80 = 57.5%
asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 1 bishop and 1 knight]
guards win (score) = 101/200 = 50.5%
I think these tests confirm HGM's conclusions. A guard seems to be very nearly equal to a bishop, and slightly superior to a knight. When the game is [3 knights, 3 bishops] vs. [2 knights, 2 bishops, 2 guards] the guards are almost exactly equal to the average of knights and bishops.
note: this test started with an unknown value for the guard. By fine-tuning their value, they might be able to play slightly better, so the guards value might be even a little more than summarized here.
Btw, here's an updated image of a guard (what I see more often in variant chess games).
In the section "One Set, Four Boards" the author wrote "Seems like a silly idea, but the small number of pieces means that the game won't take so many moves, and the position of the Kings means that they will never be safe -- and so there will be many short games with exciting attacks.".
This is interesting. It's one of the most extreme examples I've seen where piece values are not a good indicator of one side's advantage in chess.
Thanks for sharing.:)
How do you post a diagram? I tried to post an image of the guard in one thread, but it doesn't show immediately on the page. An icon needs to be clicked again to see the graphic.
Wow, this rule change makes a big difference to the game of chess!
The sample games were finished in 4, 7, 18, and 13 moves - each move certainly has much more influence on the game play.
I've been trying to think of ways to "add power" to the game "Chess on an Infinite Plane" without adding more or stronger pieces. This might be a good way to do it (but maybe with some limitations).
Is there anyone who would like to try such a game? I'm open to any new and innovative ideas. If you have any favorite pieces, we can try those also (but I'm looking for more than just a mix of new pieces).
The games in play for Chess on an Infinite Plane are going well so far. I'm just interested in a version which might somewhat amplify the game power a little.
Ok, Thanks Kevin. I didn't know there was a diagram maker on this site. I'm impressed that it can make diagrams with hexagonal shapes. Your diagram also appears to be an interesting start to a new game. Thanks for the info.
Thanks Kevin, that helps a lot!
Here's my first chess diagram made by HTML code (which I'm pretty sure is an illegal position):
<IMG SRC="/play/pbm/drawdiagram.php?code=RnbqkbnRpPpPpPpP32pPpPpPpPrNBQKBNr">
Your information is a big help.:)
It showed up correctly at Diagram Designer. Not sure what's missing here.
(That is, it showed correctly an illegal chess position).
Well, for now, at least I can make diagrams at the Designer page.:)
Here is the code which represents the starting position for "Chess on an Infinite Plane":
<IMG SRC="/play/pbm/drawdiagram.php?code=1p1e1p8p1e1p3p1p10p1p5p12p86profnbqkbnforp7pppppppppppp88PPPPPPPPPPPP7PROFNBQKBNFORP86P12P5P1P10P1P3P1E1P8P1E1P1&cols=20&point=22&bcolor=FOFFFO&colors=D3D3D3+FFFACD+F5DEB3&tcolor=FFFACD">
Kevin: Thanks for your help with using Diagram Designer. (I'm still trying to learn how "colors" works, and if there is a reference somewhere that shows selections available with code to use).
I will submit this soon so it's shown here also in the ChessVariants Pages. It's already being played at the chess.com forum. (I recently lost a rook in one game, putting me behind):(
Also, can anyone tell me why the code does not display in these threads? It works at the Designer Page. Am I missing something to make it display here?
Thanks,
I have one more question I hope someone can help me with:
I would like to switch the colors of the black and white squares of the chessboard in this diagram:
<IMG SRC="/play/pbm/drawdiagram.php?code=1p1e1p8p1e1p3p1p10p1p5p12p86profnbqkbnforp7pppppppppppp88PPPPPPPPPPPP7PROFNBQKBNFORP86P12P5P1P10P1P3P1E1P8P1E1P1&cols=20&point=22&bcolor=FOFFFO&colors=D3D3D3+FFFACD+F5DEB3&tcolor=FFFACD">
The pattern colors are specified by:
D3D3D3 FFFACD F5DEB3
But when I move sections around, I can't get the colors to switch as expected. Can anyone explain how this works?
It's just a minor detail, but I would prefer if I can make the diagram so that the queen is on her own color. (I like to keep with tradition, except for the variant rules that are actually being revised).
Thanks if anyone can help.:)
"Chess on an Infinite Plane"
Hawk (H) - Leaps exactly 2 or 3 squares in any orthogonal or diagonal direction. The leaping move means it can jump over other pieces.
Guard (G) - Moves and captures the same as a king but is not affected by check.
Pawns play the same and promote at the same rank as in classical chess. (Using the board coordinates shown in the diagram, white pawns promote at rank 15, and black pawns promote at rank 8). Pawns can promote to chancellor, hawk, or guard in addition to queen, rook, bishop, or knight. Pawns may capture en passant with the same rules as in classical chess.
Thanks Kevin, you've been a big help! I just added the game to a new thread. I was even able to switch the square colors so the queens are now on her own color. Fergus Duniho's abstract (and cubist) piece images were also very helpful to make the chess diagram have a nice appearance.
I have many questions about this game, which I hope people on these forums might be able to answer. (For example what are some example of pieces required to checkmate on an infinite plane?)
And I also hope someone will play me in a game.
Thanks again!
I'm now posting the rules for a sub-variant of "Chess on an Infinite Plane:
"Chess on an Infinite Plane with Huygens Option"
Hawk - Leaps exactly 2 or 3 squares in any orthogonal or diagonal direction. The leaping move means it can jump over other pieces.
Guard - Moves and captures the same as a king but is not affected by check.
Pawns play the same and promote at the same rank as in classical chess. (Using the board coordinates shown in the diagram, white pawns promote at rank 14, and black pawns promote at rank 7). Pawns can promote to chancellor, hawk, or guard in addition to queen, rook, bishop, or knight. Pawns may capture en passant with the same rules as in classical chess.
Thanks Aurelian! I read about your variant Enep. I like the short and succint name. I know it means Enhanced Knight Exrtra Pawn, but the name also sounds Norse or Scandanavian (I think that might be where gnomes came from).
I also like the simplicity of the game. Chess can already be very complicated, so only a minor rule change is needed to make a good variant. Your variant sounds intriguing. When I finish one or two other games (I'm usually playing about 5-7 games concurrently, one move per day), I might want to play Enep.:)
I also submitted a variant (Chess on an Infinite Plane using classical chess pieces) on 2/16, but haven't seen or heard anything yet.
I'm interested in seeing yours:)
Hi Aurelian,I'm not sure why my name shows up with question marks. I see it that way too.
Btw, did you finish any more work with Enap? Are you testing it by playing for real, or by testing it some other way?
:)
Oh that's cool!
I noticed in the notes you said you only played one game. Can you make the engines play multiple times (like 50 games)? If you can play a game cpu vs. cpu why not a bigger study?
Also, if you're moving around pawns to balance the game, have you thought about adding two pawns to each side? For example, you give one side pawns in weak positions (a and h?) and the other side strong (c and f?). This MIGHT let the setup be symmetrical (althought that doesn't really have a benefit except for aesthetics).
I think it's cool that you are doing experimentation to improve the game. I'm not sure how much fine-tuning is possible. You might be able to get it so that it is so balance that white's first move advantage is gone. (that means one side will always get the knightwa.
Unfortunatelly for me, I don't think there are any engines that play chess on an infinite board. So I can't test "Chess on an Infinite Plane" with an engine. But my games with three real people are going well (I think I'm winning in won, near tie in another, and losing one).
I am starting to study a new version. It might have a few more pieces, but in certain situations TWO pieces can be moved in one turn. For example, moving two pawns in one move, moving two bishops together when they are adjacent to each other, or moving two pieces if they are still in their original positions but engaged in different localized battles. My goal is to help the opening game move faster, and add new dynamics.
When playing by correspondence (1 move per day), I think a 50-100 move game is OK, but if the game last more than 200 moves that might be getting too long.
Suggestions by anyone are welcome!:)
Ok great, keep me updated if you find a new variation of Enap!
Like I said before, I really like the name, and the simplicity of the initial setup is very elegant I think.
In fact, I think the name, and the game match each other very well.
Here is the setup I am considering for my next game. It uses the "huygens" which is a piece which jumps prime numbers of squares. That's the piece with a triangular outer shape and cross-shaped cutout (from icons by Furgus Duniho).
A more detailed description of the huygens is here .Thanks for sharing info about Enap!
Enep, that's right! I'm very sorry.
The huygens will add more trouble if anyone wants to make a chess engine that uses it. For one thing, the list of all prime numbers is hard to describe (they aren't even all known). But if played in a normal game, it should not be hard to use as long as it doesn't move far.
The largest known prime number is [2^(74,207,281) − 1] which has 22,338,618 digits. If anyone wants to move a hugens farther than that, first they will have to prove the number is prime. I won't wait for any player who wants to make such a move!:)
For Enep, I'll remember "Enhanced knight - extra pawn"!
:)
Thanks Kevin, It looks like you've made many variations of hexagonal-based board shapes. They are very interesting. That's also a good tip to use the "-" to block out squares, to make even more interesting board patterns. I've thought of doing that in an initial diagram, to add "walls" or other obstructions in a chessboard, but have not done so yet.
As for experimenting with large diagrams, I took a previous image and "zoomed-out" to a 50x50 grid. This represents a previous game set-up (it is not new), but it is an expanded view which can be used in the event pieces "spread out" during play.
Good work on your diagrams and, thanks for all the tips you've been sharing:)
The Huygens Chess Piece
2, 3, 5, 7, 11...(value = rook + 2 pawns)
3, 5, 7, 11...   (value = rook+)
5, 7, 11...      (value = bishop+)
Where do we read about the fool or the game it is used in? I could not find any info about apothecary chess. Did you post any info any about it yet?
29.Jxf7Â Â (joker gets the bishop's move and captures the bishop)
29...Qxf7 (white captures the black joker in return)
This shows joker may indeed be about the average of the other pieces.
Black willing to give up bishop for joker. (calculating joker is worth more).
White sacrifices joker to capture bishop (calculating bishop is worth more).
white "J1" plays against black "J1". White wins with a checkmate by chancellor, rook, and hawk (for example).
white "J1" plays against black "J1". Neither side still has an advantage, so:
white "J2" plays against black "J2". Black wins with checkmate by a hawk and two promoted pawns (for example).
That was just posted yesterday? I watched it and read some of the comments. I'll have to read everything again to understand it better. The video makes the assumption that chess is never a draw but they didn't explain how the rules are changed to enforce this. One comment someone added says for example if it is your turn and you have no legal moves, you lose. This is normally a stalemate including in "Chess on an Infinite Plane".
6 - advantage (stalemate - superior side, or point count 4 or more)
4.5? - draw (point count is 3 or less)
3 - disadvantage (stalemate - inferior side)
0 - loss
Hi Aurelian,
Thank Fergus,
I changed the title and now it looks better and more simple. The game introduction still mentions that it uses your piece shapes. I like the abstract icons a lot, and for this game where it's necessary to display a large board area, it's easy to identify the pieces even when you "zoom out".
I also have another game which is played on an infinite board called "Trappist-1". It also uses your piece icons, including one of the shapes for the huygens (a piece which jumps prime numbers of squares).
The game is pending review, and I hope it's posted on this site soon.
Regards :)
Hi Fergus, Thanks for your comments.
About the piece images, I think the ones used make a lot of sense, because they match your abstract styles very well. The orthodox pieces all follow the normal shapes in your set. But since some unusual pieces are used, I selected piece shapes that best represent what they do.
For the guard (or "mann") I used the circle shape with triangle, to indicate it moves both orthogonally, and diagonally. It is a very basic shape just as the king (which has the same moves).
Your set does not have a hawk, so I used the tall triangle shape because it appears "sharp", just as a hawk has sharp talons and beak.
Also, there is no huygens, so I chose the pyramid shape piece with the "+" shape cut-out. The pyramid is a symbol of mystery, just like prime numbers, and the "+" shape represents the orthogonal moves of the huygens.
I hope you'll agree that these images are good choices for both "Trappist-1" and "Chess on an Infinite Plane".
Last, on the topic of playing on an Infinite Plane, a player can move a piece 50-million squares away. There is no problem with that (although the play would be questionable at best). If someone does this, the piece simply is not shown in the chess diagram. There is only a supplemental note added to the game status such as "white rook is in square (50,000,000, 2)". (file and rank of the piece). But in actual play, I don't believe there is ever any reason to move a piece this far away because there is nothing of interest so far out. The piece would be less effective at attacking because it could not create forks.
In all the games played so far, the farthest span of pieces ever played was 36 ranks I believe. Then the distant pieces moved back in. (I'll send you a link if you'd like to see the game's moves).
Anyway, thanks so much for your comments. I really appreciate them. There's currently several games in progress.
Thanks Fergus. I replied on the page for Trappist-1. Will you release that page so it can be viewed publicly? If anyone else is interested it will let them see about the development of Chess on an Infinite Plane (if there's any revisions), and also Trappist-1. Both games are already being played.
Thanks so much! :)
Thanks Ben,
I did update the images to the CVP site, and updated the links. It looks fine now. This same game was also released with Fergus' abstract icons, but I'd like to show the game with both pieces sets.
The game is already being played with the classic icons (this submission), and some people might prefer this style because it looks much more similar to the normal chess pieces.
Thanks for your support!
Welcome to the Chess Variant Pages Greg!
An editor who wrote a program that plays chess gives this forum excellent credibility!!
:)
I noticed that ChessV plays two multi-move variants (Marseillais Chess and Doublemove Chess).
Does anyone have a good record of played games for either of these (either human play or computer play)? It seems the games are usually very short. I was wondering what the average length of play would be for games of these variants.
I've been thinking of trying a game of "Chess on an Infinite Plane" where double-moves are allowed, or maybe only double-moves of pawns, or pawn plus one other piece. A link to the game is here):
Chess on an Infinite PlaneIf anyone has info on analysis (computer or otherwise) for multi-move games I would love to learn about it!
OK, thanks for answering. In a few weeks I might try ChessV.
I noticed the package includes Fairy-Max. Does ChessV and Fairy-Max share any code, or are they distinct programs?
Regards, :)
After reading these comments I became curious what graphic set is used for Chess with different armies (the version shown on this thread). I couldn't find out. Does anyone know?
Thanks Fergus,
It looks like there's a big set of Alfaerie graphics. I was looking for a war machine icon that I saw somewhere, and i was able to find it. In fact, there's a few versions. I appreciate it.
Thanks! :)
I've thought about adding the feature to Trappist-1 (version of Chess on an Infinite Plane). It will help correspondence games go faster when only one move is played per day. Of course it also changes the strategy. The opening and mid-game will go-by faster, and then the final "clash" can be much more damaging.
I just installed chessV and I already really like it a lot! It uploads quickly, and installed with no problems. It seems like an awesome program. I like how games are categorized, making it easy to find games, and includes an index with each game's history. Great work! I'm gonna really enjoy using it!
(I also saw Aurelian's Enep on it too!)
Edited pages: 3
Forfnibakking
Fibnif
mAW
fFbW
Fibnif plus Rook
B4nD
N2R4
Forfnifurlrurking
A huygens is chess piece that jumps in the directions of a rook any prime number of squares. In this discussion, I also impose the limit that it has a minimum jump distance of 5 or more squares (as it is used in Trappist-1 ).
So this huygens jumps distances of 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97... and so on. Its icons are shown here:
Icon 1 - by Fergus Duniho.
Icon 2 - Scientific Version
Just like a knight sometimes has trouble moving to a certain square (like requiring 4 jumps to move to a square 2 squares up and 2 left), moving a huygens can also take a few jumps to move to certain squares. Moving an odd number of squares can be tricky if the number isn't prime, because the sum of two primes is always even (unless one of the numbers is 2, but the huygens here can't jump 2 squares). So in these cases, a huygens needs to make 3 jumps to get to a particular square.
When moving an even number of squares, I think it would usually take 2 jumps. But I don't know if there is a way to prove this for every even-numbered move. It is currently unknown if every even integer can be expressed as the sum of two primes. In the 1700's Christian Goldbach believed it was true but couldn't prove it. Today it is still an unsolved problem and is known as the Goldbach Conjecture.
So if you are playing a game of chess with the huygens, don't always assume that you can move an even number of squares in two jumps. There may be some rare cases where three jumps are required. But shorter moves are usually not a problem to figure out. Here's a summary I believe is usually true:
If the distance is prime (5 or more) the huygens can move there in one jump.
If the distance is even, the huygens can get there in two jumps (always or almost always true)
If the distance is odd and not prime, it will require three jumps
The list below shows how to do it for distances up to 40. This may not include every possible method for each distance. For some short moves, it is necessary to overjump the destination, and them move back.
(Move/Leap distances to make the move):
1 (5,7,-11)
2 (7,-5)
3 (5,11,-13)
4 (11,-7)
5 (5)
6 (11,-5)
7 (7)
8 (13,-5)
9 (5,11,-7)
10 (5,5) or (17,-7)
11 (11)
12 (5,7)
13 (13)
14 (7,7)
15 (5,5,5)
16 (5,11)
17 (17)
18 (5,13) or (7,11)
19 (19)
20 (7,13)
21 (7,7,7)
22 (5,17) or (11,11)
23 (23)
24 (5,19) or (7,17) or (11,13)
25 (5,7,13)
26 (7,19) or (13,13)
27 (5,11,11) or (5,5,17) or (7,7,13)
28 (5,23) or (11,17)
29 (29)
30 (7,23) or (11,19) or (13,17)
31 (31)
32 (13,19)
33 (11,11,11)
34 (17,17) or (11,23)
35 (11,11,13)
36 (17,19)
37 (37)
38 (11,11,11,5)
39 (13,19,7)
40 (11,29) or (17,23)
If anyone finds an error or a faster way for any of these moves please leave a reply.
Is this maneuvering problem similar to the knight's tour problem (first discussed in the 9th century)?
Yup, It seems to work now.
I was even able to add graphics to one of my recent posts.
Thanks Fergus!
I've heard of some of those sequences, but not all of them. I had to look up the pancake numbers.
For example, for 4 pancakes, there's 3 ways it might be in an unorganized stack so that it requries 4 flips with a spatula to organize it (from large to small), 11 that require 3, 6 for 2, 3 for 1, and 1 for 0. So a 4 pancake stack gives a pancake sequence of 3, 11, 6, 3, and 1. (Or 1, 3, 6, 11, 3 in reverse order).
But I don't understand the pancake sequence that you showed. It's not a sequence for any stack of pancakes. Am I not on the right path to what a pancake sequence is? Were some pancakes burned and thrown away? Let me know!
That's funny. Pancake numbers can come from two ways: stacking them and cutting them! It's making me hungry.
I'll eat and then enjoy web-surfing to learn more about some of the other number sequences you listed!
Merging Chinese chess with Western chess was a very ambitious thing to do (altering two orthodox traditions) but I think you've succeeded! I like how you took the plain round disks and replaced them with chess pieces that are easier to discrimate. Good work on this interesting variant!
OK, today I'll study the lucky numbers, and the wierd numbers from George Duke. (Possible new chess pieces for large chessboards and infinite chess).
I like the Lucky numbers. Once a number is stricken from the list, it can never be added back. The lucky ones remain!
Fergus, Ben, Greg, what's the normal amount of time for CVP to decide if material (such as below, which I also submited at "Post your own Games") can be added to the Piececlopedia or as a side-article?
I know you guys are working on the CKEditor. But the material I posted is pre-formatted, displays correctly, and is ready to go.
The only question is if Fergus is OK with the huygens having his "pyramid" artwork to be used as a piece shape. (If not, then the scientific design can be the primary piece shape).
The article I wrote is complete, but I would also be completelly fine with anyone adding to it, and then it being posted with two authors.
It's time for CVP to have a new piece added to Piececlopedia. It's been awhile since the last one!
Since this comment is for a page that has not been published yet, you must be signed in to read it.
Hi Fergus, I'm sorry - I did recieve your e-mail this morning but didn't realize you had sent it. To answer your questions about infinite chess, there are currently a few games in progress and some of them are on public game forums. (One game is a team competition between two groups, with one move being declared about every two days). Infinite chess is also being discussed on math forums, because of how it affects the ability of chess to be analyzed by game theory, and chess-playing software.
I did delete your graphic from my submission, because I will of course respect your artwork if you don't want it used for the huygens.
I also added a mention of Hans Bodlaender, and a link to a page where he discussed infinite chess in 2001. (As you know Hans was very innovative, and it's good to see the current team of editors for CVP continue to carry on his tradition).
I understand that the Piececlopedia is for pieces with a long tradition, so I understand you may not want it included there. But I hope you will make the article about the huygens visible to the public, so that these pages continue to be useful to people who might want to learn more about Infinite Chess, and the pieces that are used with it.
As always, I really appreciate your support.
At one chess-playing forum, there are at least two games of my version "Chess on an Infinite Plane" being played. One of them is a team competition (3 players vs. 3 players). Another game in-progress is called "Chess on an Infinite Plane with Huygens Option" which is the same as Trappist-1 (a game described here at CVP).
Also, the huygens has received attention among the math community. An example is at the StackExchange Talk Forum, and also at the Talk Page of Joel Hamkins "A position in infinite chess with game value ω^4".
Please let me know if you'd like me to show any specific links.
Thanks as always Fergus,
Hi Fergus, here are links to the four examples:
Chess on an Infinite Plane with Huygens Option
Chess on an Infinite Plane - Team Competition
Question at Stack Exchange about the Huygens
A position in infinite chess with game value omega to the ω^4 (huygens mentioned in discussion)
Thanks as always for your support,
Thanks Fergus for all your hard work and getting it all running well again! Everything seems fine right now (from where I am and at this point in time).
I know you probably want a rest, or some diversion now. As soon as everything is stable, will you please make sure to remember to take some action or leave me some comment about this:
Thanks for all your hard hard work. You are keeping the great tradition of variant chess and fairy chess pieces alive and strong!:)
Hi Aurelian, I'm glad you are feeling better. What was the result of the Wizard being too dangerous? Did it give White too much of an advantage, or some other consequence?
Also, what does the Wizard do. In the notes below it says "steps one step diagonally or makes a (3,1) leap." Is it the ability to attack the 1st (or 8th) rank pieces over the pawns that made it too dangerous?
Hi Aurelian and Greg, just to throw in my opinion, I don't think draws are a problem in chess. It's just a 3rd possible outcome.
Games can still be intense and filled with interesting and spectacular play. Here's a good example of an interesting game that ended in draw:
Magnus Carlsen (age 13) vs. KasparovSee Kasparov shaking his head.
Greg: Btw, I've been enjoying your ChessV program. Excellent work!
Thanks for the update. Also, I think it's usually better to work on one game, and release it, rather than two at once.
Also (btw), I think games are fine even if they aren't in ChessV.
ChessV is awesome because you can play games against it, as well as see your moves analyzed. On the other-hand, if you play chess on-line with long time-control, you may always be worried your opponent might be using ChessV to help.
So some games not being in ChessV is good.
Also, we have to keep Greg busy with programming!!
One of the last places where he left comments is here:
<< Mullers Short-Range Leaper Law >>
It's a short but useful thread to explain how leaping piece values can be estimated with a formula. I also did some work to try to "disprove or prove" the formula, and I found it to be very accurate (comparing the value of a guard and knight to that of a bishop for example). The formula now takes the name "Muller's Short-Range Leaper Law".
Btw, I like your idea of playing cyborg chess. It is currently being used in one game of "Chess on an Infinite Plane" but unfortunatelly, the computers don't help much because the game has not been well simulated by any code.
Hi Fergus, have you had time to review and release this yet? I'm starting a new article for CVP now but would like to get this piece article released before submitting my next article. My next article will be a short article about variant chess pieces in general. I hope to have it done in 2 or 3 days.
Three questions (sorry if these were already answered, but I couldn't immediatelly see these topics in the rules or the thread):
1) There are 7 categories. If we sign-up does that mean we are committed to playing seven games (1 in each category)? We play only one game at a time?
2) If we have an extended time without access to internet (travel or work assignment) can we use "spare time" while game is on-hold?
3) Is computer-assistance allowed (I haven't checked, but I believe some of these games can be played on chess engines).
Thanks:)
Thank Fergus,
(Q1) Playing eight games concurently with time-control (4 moves/week) is playing an average of 4.6 moves per day. Obviously it would be good to learn all the games rules before-hand. That's a bit much to learn "on-the-fly".
(Q2) Thanks for the answer.
(Q3) Thanks. Someone on one of these forums once mentioned cyborg chess, and I wasn't sure if that was the format. A format (human + computer) vs (human + computer) could be fun too. I just wanted to know for sure (better to know the rules before the game starts rather than in the middle of the game).
Playing eight games concurently is a bit much for me with my other commitments, but sounds fun. Good luck!!
Thanks Greg for the clarifications. I'll sit this tournament out, but it does look like fun.
Some time I would like to play an engine-assisted game. Might be interesting for a game on a large board, like chess on a 12x12 board. I've always been curious if a flank attack (attack from behind the king) can be well-executed. It takes extra moves to get there, but the defense from that angle might be weaker.
Have fun in the tournament.:)
This looks like an interesting game, and I like many aspects of it - including its large size, good blend of traditional and new pieces, and clean crisp graphics. They work together well to create an interesting and appealing game.
I was wondering what it would take to play this engine-vs-engine.
The first thing I noticed is that CVPs page on ChessV brings up an error. Is this related to the recent server move?
I've also read that ChessV has a scripting option, which might allow custom variants to be entered and played. Is this game (Chess and a half) within the possibility to enter as a script? I've never tried anything like that, but I'm always willing to try new things.
Lastly, I know that custom variants can be entered to Fairy-Max. Does anyone know off-hand if this variant is within the size limit of Fairy-Max?
With a little bit of work, I MIGHT be able to get an engine-vs-engine game going of this variant. That would be really awesome. Why play myself, if I can let an engine do the work???
Thanks for the info. I did suspect that this game for a few reasons is pressing the limits of what variant chess engines can play. (Games will always be ahead of engines, if for no other reason that nobody makes an engine before the game. Plus, I'm sure programming is not a fast easy task, especially for chess).
HGMuller: Keep us up-to-date when HaChu is released!
Greg: I didn't know that a link to ChessV is in the "Play" menu. In an internal (CVP) search for ChessV, results for both pages come up (plus less related pages). Users will have a 50/50 chance of finding a useful page on the first try.
About "Chess and a Half". This board is 1.5x as wide as a normal chessboard - is that why it's "Chess and Half"? At this size it has 144 squares, so has 144/64 = 2.25 times as many squares. Not counting the new pieces, I think this is massivelly more complex than ordinary chess. Btw: I like how you kept the tradition "queen starts on her own color", and I also like how each of the two knight face in opposite directions. Even late in the game, when there's just one knight of a color, you can know which one survived.
Even the minutiae appears to be well-thought out. Great work!
Maybe rules 5, 7, and 8 should just be eliminated. Then the game would have the quality that the graphics are clean, crisp, and interesting, and the rules are simple and concise.
Only the game is mathematically complex (due to large size and extra pieces).
Should there be an image with the page for Polymorph Chess? In my view, the top half of the page is blank.
Or since the starting setup can look like chess there is no diagram?
The game does sound interesting. Only once have I played a variant where chess pieces can convert to another piece. In Waterloo a knight can merge with an "elite-guard" to form a "joker". It was a rather elaborate game, and I'm scheduled to play it again in a few weeks. Games with one or two morphing/merging piece abilities can be fun.:)
With the rule changes I think this is now a nearly perfectly designed variant.
Chess is already a very complicated game in the sense of being able to "calculate" moves. Even normal chess cannot be perfectly calculated even if a modern engine had the support of supercomputers.
So in my opinion, it is never necessary to purposelly add rules simply for the sake of "adding complexity" (similar to Greg's comments). The complexity in chess is already inherent in the game itself. (For this same reason, I never add ice cubes to beer, and my coffee is not adulterated with extra flavorings).
This variant now has all the elements of a well-designed game: simple and clean graphics, good mix of traditional and new pieces, rooks placed traditionally at the corners, etc. The pawns also being allowed to make up to an initial quadruple-step, and knights a double-step is also good due to the large board.
Now just two more comments:
1) Nicolino says that pawns can't promote to Star Cat because that would be an overwhelming power increase. Using HGMuller's formula (value = 1.1*N*(30 +(5/8)*N), centipawns) the Star Cat should be worth about 12 points. I don't think that's too much, especially with the large board. But a reason to not allow it might be that the game already starts with 4 Cats and 4 Star-Cats, so promoting to queens or other pieces forces more variety on the board.
2) Also, with the rule clarifications/changes, I believe that Fairy-Max can be setup to play this game (please correct me if I'm wrong). Greg also said that after "play testing" this game in theory could be added to ChessV (a future possibility?) So for the sake of discussion could Fairy-Max be set-up to use one ChessV engine, or vice-versa? If so, an engine-vs-engine game (different codes) might be possible. That would be really interesting, especially for a game that is just barelly within the range of the engines that I'm aware of.
One final minor note: Rule#3 has a typo ("becuase" -> "because").
Good work on the game Nicolino!
I believe it just means that that the Cat and Star-Cat can capture pieces within its intermediate move pattern. So for example a Star Cat on d4 can capture pieces on e5, f6, and g7 (in one move).
But being optional is interesting. I think it would be uncommon for one of the cats to not want to capture a piece while jumping over it. But there may be situations, for example to leave an opponent's pawn in place if the pawn is blocking a slider from attacking a more valuable piece.
I just realized it also probably means that Fairy-Max can't play this. And my estimate for the value of a Star-Cat may be low, due to multi-capture ability.
But since it's not a long distance mover, I don't think it has overwhelming power, and would still play perfectly in this game.
Kevin, thanks for your information about piece values. Your comment about a queen being more powerful on larger boards is interesting, and a good point.
A few months ago I used HGMuller's Fairy-Max to play a bunch of games to estimate the value of a guard (to confirm or dispute HGMuller's earlier work). I did it on a 10x8 board, and used the 4 extra squares for pieces to add guards and/or minor pieces. From these tests, I found that a guard is very nearly equal to a bishop, and slightly superior to a knight. (let me know if anyone would like more info about test details).
Nicolino, I hope you don't get rid of any of the Star Cats just because of their power.
This is a big board, so there's room for a few powerful pieces. Opponents have plenty of room to maneuver, create defenses, avoid attacks, and to create counter-attacks.
Btw, even though HGMuller's formula applies only to short-range leapers, I suspect it still might be good for pieces which jump up to 3 squares away when played on a large board.
Long range jumpers on a small board have the problem that long jumps go "off the board". But on a large board, attack points are more likely to useful, possibly helping the formula to remain accurate.
Maybe within a week or two, I'll calculate the "power density" of this game. It's a method I've used to determine the relative power of all pieces as a ratio to board size, and compare it with other games. I believe it's a useful measure of how "dynamic" the play can be expected to be. I'll update here if/when I finish the calculation.
Joe Joyce (and others interested):
Here's the details of my tests to estimate the value of a guard. Using Fairy-Max, I set up games on a 10x8 board. Pieces on each side placed as: RXNBQKBNXR.
X represents a variable piece, which was always different between black and white.
For example, black might have X = two knights and white has X = two guards (or vice-versa). Then I ran games (engine vs. engine with long time control) and kept track of scores. In all cases the armies were switched (W/B) so that half the games were each way. (scores are based on win = 1, draw = 0.5, loss = 0).
First, one problem in setting up a test is that Fairy-Max requires all pieces to have an assigned value, and going into a test the assigned value of a guard is unknown.
The first approximatelly 200 games were to "hunt" for the guard's best assigned value. I found guards play best with an assigned value between 300 and 375. Within this range games were not sensitive to their assigned value. But if the assigned value is lower (tested 250) or higher (tested 400) then guards don't help their side to play well (and these results are discarded from the final summary).
An Overall Summary of only games where guards have this "optimal" assigned value (300, 350, or 375):
asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 2 bishops]
guards win (score) = 40/80 = 50.0%
asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 2 knights]
guards win (score) = 46/80 = 57.5%
asymmetry: [2 guards vs. 1 bishop and 1 knight]
guards win (score) = 101/200 = 50.5%
Conclusion (on a 10x8 board, with other FIDE chess pieces):
A guard's value is:
1) equal to a bishop.
2) slightly superior to a knight.
If any questions or comments feel free to leave a message.
HGMuller's formula is interesting, and it's good to see there's a way to expand its scope by using ELC. Muller presented the formula as:
value = 33*ELC + (33*ELC)*(33*ELC)/1584)
I prefer it a little more as:
value = 33*ELC + 0.6875*(ELC)^2
In this form the variable occurs once for its linear component (33xELC) and once for its polynomial component (0.6875*(ELC)^2).
But this is just a minor stylistic preference. More generally, it's very interesting that a rather simple formula can be quite accurate for a wide range of leapers. Not sure if there's any future possibility (by Muller or others) to ammend it for longer range leapers. Of course, work like this always requires a lot of engine analysis, and follow-up evaluation of the data.
Good work on the formula!
Btw, do we know that Lasker's estimate of a king's value in an endgame (4) might not be too far off? The study that I did (which basically just confirmed previous work by Muller) was to estimate the value of a guard/commoner for the entirety of a chess-game (10x8 board).
From my study alone, I cannot dispute Lasker's estimate. As far as I know, it might be possible that a non-royal king might be worth a little more on an 8x8 board, and yet a little more in an end-game only situation.
As mentioned before, I completed a calculation of the "Material Power Density" for "Chess and a Half".
First, to explain what this ratio is - it is simply the sum of the value of all chess pieces on the board, divided by the playing area (number of squares).
This paramater may give some prediction of the style of play that can be expected from a game. Higher density usually means pieces have more attacking possibilities, and games can enter into dynamic attacks quickly - requiring fast responses from the other side. A lower density means that the opening development may last longer, with a stronger focus (for example) on the placement of pawns.
From lowest to highest is the "Material Power Density" of several games I've analyzed, with "Chess and a Half" now added in the list.
Board Number Piece Power Ratio to
Size (sqs) of Pcs. Density Density Classical Chess
———————————————————— ———————————— ——————— ——————— ——————— ———————————————
Classical Chess 8 x 8 = 64 32 50% 1.34 1.00
Infinite Plane(1) 360 76 21% 0.56 0.42
A Chess Endgame(2) 8 x 8 = 64 7 (11%) 0.64 0.48
Chess and a Half 12 x 12= 144 48 33% 1.04 0.78
Bulldog Legacy Chess 10 x 8 = 80 36 45% 1.10 0.82
Bulldog Chess 10 x 8 = 80 40 50% 1.31 0.98
Bulldog Chess(Witch) 10 x 8 = 80 40 50% 1.35 1.01
Janus Chess 10 x 8 = 80 40 50% 1.53 1.14
Capablanca Chess 10 x 8 = 80 40 50% 1.55 1.16
Seirawan Chess(3) 8 x 8 = 64 36 [56%] 1.88 1.40
Musketeer Chess(4) 8 x 8 = 64 36 [56%] 1.88 1.40
Chu Shogi 12 x 12= 144 92 [64%] 1.91 1.43
Amsterdam Chess 11 x 8 = 88 44 50% 1.95 1.46
Waterloo Chess 10 x 10= 100 60 [60%] 2.72 2.03
(1) - Chess on an Infinite Plane: Play is assumed to be in an 18 x 20 range. This is the horizontal span and 2 ranks less than the vertical span of the outermost pieces (starting position). Little play is presumed to take place in the outermost ranks except for pieces moving inward.
(2) - A chess endgame: A sample 7-piece ending with KQRR vs. KQR.
(3) - Seirawan and Musketeer Chess: Data assumes all pieces are on board. Some pieces are introduced early or later in the game.
(4) - Musketeer Chess: Assumes game with archbishop and chancellor played as the new pieces.
Chess and Half (4th in list) is interesting in that is has a very low piece density (48 pieces on 144 squares), and the material density is 78% compared to that of chess (100%). This is in the range of games that have become my favorite to play. They usually feature an opening with time for tactical development, rather than the players always reacting only to exact threats from the opponent.
I've seen plenty of variants where the dynamics suffer from too much power concentrated into a normal size chess board. I would really like to try this game sometime, and as mentioned, if it's ever withing the scope of a chess engine, see if a human can win, or how two engines do against each other.
I agree that the concept of power density involves some assumptions that might cause the value to be an approximation. As you mentioned, it does assume that pieces have fixed values, even with a different mix of pieces, and different board sizes.
I do believe that if every game has a mix of pieces (as they do), such errors would tend to cancel out. For example, as board size changes, some pieces might gain slightly in value, while others lose value.
The only way to overcome such possible errors is if there was an accurate way to identify a piece's value based on the specific board size. I'm not aware of any work that has been completed to do this for a range of board sizes. At best, maybe we know the rough difference in value of a few pieces when they go from an 8x8 to 10x8 board. To my knowledge, there is no piece which has its value altered by such a large amount that it would render power density as grossly innacurate.
I believe the biggest error currently found in the power density table is the data for Chess on an Infinite Plane . Here a board size of 18 x 20 was assumed because it's the approximate span of pieces in the starting position. But the bulk of the dynamics in actual play is usually found in a much smaller area.
In fact, the tendency of pieces to try to "fight for the center" might be a phenomenon seen in all games, so the stated "board sizes" themselves might be an opportunity for refinement. But I'm reluctant to complicate the formula based only on conjecture. As we learn more about piece valuations for variant chess, I certainly can plan to refine the formula when there is merit to do so. For now, it's based on the theory that "Simple and approximate" is better than "Complex with speculation".
There may have been some differences in the test setup, for example HGM's test may have been on an 8x8 board where one side had the bishops removed altogether, and replaced by guards (commoners).
Maybe an army likes to have bishops and guards working together, but if the bishops are removed and replaced with guards, the army is slightly worse than the one that still has the bishops? Maybe HGM will shed some light on his specific test set-up, or the scope of his conclusion.
Note all tests by me were done with HGM's Fairy-Max engine, which is very well-designed for playing these types of pieces.
Just curious about something - is there anyway for a spectator to easily see the status of this tournament, or is it necessary for interested passers-by to seek through the individual games to see who's emerging as the leaders?
Oh Thanks. Sorry I didn't notice. Congratulations to all the players!
I'll probably check back occasionally - this is interesting!
If the idea is to keep the opponent king trapped, and to rescue your own king, why did both White and Black let the opponent kings escape on the first move?
Wouldn't it make more sense to keep your opponent's king trapped for as long as possible?
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I'm trying to use fairy max to play a game with 4 new pieces at the corners (the new piece is a hawk and it jumps 2 or 3 squares in any direction). The game definition is below (in fmax.ini). When I run this game black's pieces are shown in wrong locations, and the game immedietly results in a stalemate. (I have legality checking turned off, but I get errors either way). Can anyone let me know what I'm doing wrong? thanks.
// variant - [new piece at corners]
Game: fun01 # PNBRQ.....AKpnbrq.....ak # fairy
8x8
8 4 5 7 3 5 4 8
8 4 5 7 3 5 4 8
p:74 -16,24 -16,6 -15,5 -17,5
p:74 16,24 16,6 15,5 17,5
k:-1 1,34 -1,34 1,7 16,7 15,7 17,7 -1,7 -16,7 -15,7 -17,7
n:259 14,7 31,7 33,7 18,7 -14,7 -31,7 -33,7 -18,7
b:296 15,3 17,3 -15,3 -17,3
R:444 1,3 16,3 -1,3 -16,3
Q:851 1,3 16,3 15,3 17,3 -1,3 -16,3 -15,3 -17,3
H:900 -16,7 -32,7 1,7 2,7 16,7 32,7 -1,7 -2,7 -15,7 -30,7 17,7 34,7 15,7 30,7 -17,7 -34,7