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Two Large Shatranj Variants. Missing description (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝Joe Joyce wrote on Thu, Oct 6, 2005 03:23 PM EDT:
Thanks for the comments, Charles. I like the name 'Alibaba', and will gladly use it for the DA piece (even if I never find the 40 thieves), though I also like the 'Jumping General', which would then be the augmented alibaba. I'd prefer to keep to 'old-style' names for the pieces, so I'd be uncomfortable using names like 'Marshlander' for example. You have reminded me of the discussion on names a while back; if I remember correctly, your carpenter got hammered then... sorry, but you shouldn't feed me those lines. You're exposing me as a person who is not serious, but I am a serious designer. And I do want to keep all the names in the same thematic group, so I'll gratefully take alibaba, but probably use the adjective 'augmented' with the name of a piece to indicate it has a new and lesser (not as 'important' or extensive) move; eg: the augmented alibaba is the jumping general. Augmented knights would be the NF and NW pieces (though this might cause a little confusion). Names for compounds of roughly equivalent pieces, like the NA or ND, still elude me.

[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Joe Joyce wrote on Thu, Oct 13, 2005 08:57 AM EDT:
John, thank you for the reference. I've been using multiple sets with
colored twist-ties, or sets of slightly-varying sizes (and often
slightly-varying colors) with the 'big' rooks and bishops representing
chancellors and cardinals, and such. Now, if I had only taken shop...

Modern Shatranj. A bridge between modern chess and the historic game of Shatranj. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝Joe Joyce wrote on Fri, Dec 2, 2005 08:50 PM EST:
Thank you for your comments and references, David. This elephant does not
show up in the CV piecelopedia, but does in piece descriptions within the
rules of both games you mention. How many others, who knows, but it seems
to be a logical 'new' piece. This does demonstrate how difficult it is
to come up with something truly new in the way of pieces. Hasn't stopped
anyone from trying yet, including me.
A comprehensive set of rules for shatranj variants is, based on just these
variants posted in 2005, very possibly doomed. Boards, pieces, setups and
even setup strategy all have expanded considerably. A shatranj
piecelopedia and a book on shatranj variants might be the best we could
hope for.

[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Joe Joyce wrote on Sun, Dec 11, 2005 02:31 AM EST:
Hello, David. I would be happy to swap games with you. I'd love to try an
8x10 shatranj game. It will probably take me a few days to get a skeleton
GC preset together, non-rules-enforcing so we have the choice of specific
pieces*. Never played Makruk, or any of your variants, so whatever you
want is fine with me. Ten moves a week is at the upper limit of my
practical ability, but five per is a good number. Looking forward to it.
Sufficient mating force: the pieces I'm inclined to use in our game of
'great shatranj' (an awkward name for an 8x10 size) are the 1-step
slide, 2-step jump pieces, like the Modern (Shatranj) Elephant. The
dabbabah-wazir ('dababba') steps one or jumps two orthogonally. Clearly,
the 2-step dababba-rider Gary Gifford and I are using in the Grand Shatranj
test game can, with the king, checkmate a bare king, having a move of 1, 2,
3, or 4 squares. But the Modern Dababba moves only 1 or 2 squares. Can king
and dababba checkmate lone king? 
*great rationalization for my being unable to do anything more than gut a
pre-existing preset.

Joe Joyce wrote on Thu, Dec 15, 2005 08:28 PM EST:
Hello David. As I do not have your email address, I'm offering you the
invite this way. I have a non-rules-checking Great Shatranj test preset
at:
    
/play/pbm/play.php?game%3DGreat+Shatranj+Test%26settings%3Ddefault


What are your preferences for pieces and set-up? The current setup guards
all the pawns, which people seem to think is important. I would prefer we
don't use the historic fers, wazir, alfil, or dabbabah, or the not-yet
official zigzag general, but it's up to you. My e-add for a little longer
is joejoyce at sprynet dot com. I will be dropping it in a couple weeks as
I've switched providers. Pity, it never got spammed, not even once.

Game Courier Tournament #2. Sign up for our 2nd multi-variant tournament to be played all on Game Courier.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joe Joyce wrote on Thu, Dec 15, 2005 08:38 PM EST:
carlos carlos, where are you? You own me a move in the tournament, and
you're running out of time. Our game of Switching Chess is in week 2, and
you haven't made a move yet. I'd like a win, but shouldn't get it by
default.
If anyone has Carlos' address, please email him or send me the address -
thanks. Joe Joyce

Mir Chess. Missing description (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joe Joyce wrote on Wed, Dec 21, 2005 09:48 PM EST:Good ★★★★
This looks like a very interesting game. It should be much faster playing
than shatranj, given the coupling of a great increase in the number of
long-range pieces with the forward setup. Could get some fierce shoot-outs
with this setup. Some basic numbers:
                    Shatranj    FIDE     Mir
# non-royal pieces    7          7        9
# short-range         5          2        4
# long-range          2          5        5
So, while shatranj and Fide are opposites, Mir matches FIDE for long-range
pieces and all 4 short-range Mir pieces are jumpers. But, while the rooks
cancel out, the cannons and superbishop don't quite seem the equal of
bishops and queen. They're certainly not quite as easy to use. Still, all
other things being equal, I wouldn't want FIDE in a FIDE-Mir 'Chess with
Unequal Armies' game.  
I would love a copy of the zrf when it's done.

Shatranj of Troy. A Shatranj variant with Shogi-like drops, a Trojan Horse (with 6 pieces inside),. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joe Joyce wrote on Wed, Dec 21, 2005 10:37 PM EST:Excellent ★★★★★
This game is a beautiful concept, from the spare beauty of the initial setup to the balancing of the weak piece set with a fairly free piece placement and drops. It is not a game for the faint-hearted. It is probably extremely sensitive to beginning play; certainly you can win or lose quickly in this game. Several layers of play with all their complex choices are built from a few simple ideas in an easy-to-understand game. You've made a maddeningly complex easy-to-understand game. Nice job, Gary.

Joe Joyce wrote on Fri, Dec 23, 2005 01:51 AM EST:
Um, let me try this again. This is a really great game. But when you're
trying to say that and the designer has to defend himself from your
excellent rating, you've probably done something wrong. My sincere
apologies. My only excuse is that it was late and I'd taken several cold
pills an hour before. Apparently for me, typing while sleeping is as
dangerous as driving while sleeping. I was far too forceful in expressing
some of my points. 'Maddening complexity' is one instance. I never
actually beat my head against the keyboard (although if you look at the
game, you'll see several spots where I wanted to) or even came close,
except over some of my own errors. Hard as it may be to believe, I was
trying to compliment the game, and encourage people to play it. I think it
would make an excellent tournament game next time around. So, let me try
this again.
I do believe it is opening-sensitive, and here's why: 99% of variants
have all their piece starting positions pre-determined, and the sides
almost always mirror one another. Almost never does a piece on its
starting square attack an opposing piece. SoT requires you to set up your
own pieces as moves in the game. Now you have to work to balance the other
guy's setup, and may wind up with a considerably different setup. This is
an 'extra area', where players can gain or lose during setup. This
can't happen in FIDE. But this is a bonus, making the game quite unique,
to the best of my knowledge. It appears that playing through a number of
openings would help you determine better piece placements. If one player
makes significantly better piece placements, that advantage may easily
carry through the game. 
I see this as a whole new area, you see it as 'much more opening
variety'. I obsess over placements, counting squares a jamal or dabbabah
can reach, trying to ensure that pieces can support each other; it's not
necessarily simple for everyone. I always had trouble with free set-ups in
wargames. It generally took me a few repeats of a game to have an idea of
how to do the initial piece placement. And, of course, an opponent,
knowing your preferences, can adjust his placement to disrupt yours. This
helps make the game excellent, regardless of how it's seen.
Finally, the 'Nice job'. That should have been 'Tremendous job'. I'm
looking forward to playing this again. I want (need) to learn how to use
the Trojan horse. It's an outstanding piece. 
As far as resigning too quickly, you had me good - you just got the 2nd
rook, and controlled my back rank. I was hoping to start again, and play a
much more even game, now that I have some idea of how placement and drops
work. This game deserves a better test than I gave it so far.

David Pritchard. Death notice.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joe Joyce wrote on Sun, Jan 1, 2006 09:09 PM EST:
I've been a member of this site (and online) a little over a year. I have
never seen the Encyclopedia of Chess Variants nor had any dealings with
Mr. Pritchard. However, in the brief time I've been here, I've seen his
name cited over and over again, as authoritative. I believe David Howe is
right. Whether or not this site ever generally recognizes people in
addition to games, I think Mr. Pritchard more than deserves the
recognition and thanks of people who love what chess can be. Surely it is
the rare person like David Pritchard who has helped create the conditions
and situations that all the rest of us enjoy. I feel this site would be
remiss in not finding a way to memorialize him. My sincere condolences to
his family and friends. 
M J Joyce III

[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Joe Joyce wrote on Wed, Jan 4, 2006 10:56 PM EST:
What are the minimum computer skills needed?

Game Courier Ratings. Calculates ratings for players from Game Courier logs. Experimental.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joe Joyce wrote on Mon, Jan 16, 2006 12:18 AM EST:
What happens when a game you've won, and it says 'You have won' in the
game log, doesn't show up in the calculations, even though you can call
it up by name from the game logs with your password, and it shows as a win
when you list all your games? The game in question is
Omega Chess oncljan-joejoyce-2005-96-245
Admittedly, it's not a good win, but it balances out one of the
almost-won games where my opponent disappeared just before the end. (I see
the value of timed games now.) Actually, I hadn't brought it up before
because it is such a poor win that I didn't feel I deserve it, but I
realized that if it was included, I just might get up to 1500 briefly,
before I lose to Carlos, David, Gary..., and that'd be a kick for someone
who's only been playing a year or so after, depending on how you wish to
count time off, 30-40 years.  
I will say the ratings have brought out everyone's competitive spirits.
As for me, I'll happily carry a general rating that takes in all my
games: playtests, coffee-house, and tournament; but, since people are
asking for so many things, I'd like to add one more. Would it be possible
or practical to allow people to choose one or more subsets of games for a
specific rating. For example, I am currently playing several variants of
shatranj now, one of which is 'grand shatranj'. Could I be allowed to
put any number of game names into a 'Rate these games only' field, so I
could get a combined rating for say 6 shatranj variants plus Grand Chess?
And then another for the 'big board' games, and so on?

Joe Joyce wrote on Mon, Jan 16, 2006 11:56 AM EST:Excellent ★★★★★
Thank you very much.

The Travelers. Missing description (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joe Joyce wrote on Mon, Jan 23, 2006 07:59 PM EST:
Hello Fergus or whomever. I have just gotten exactly the same error as Christine, when I clicked on the 'Last Game Courier move made ...' button on the 'What's New' page, down to the exact wording.

[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Joe Joyce wrote on Mon, Jan 23, 2006 08:59 PM EST:
Yes, it does, and on poor Roberto's page, too. So I traveled this comment
to a new spot.

Chess Variant Pages Membership. Missing description[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joe Joyce wrote on Fri, Jan 27, 2006 02:52 PM EST:
Hi, Matt. It's unlikely your submission was rejected. Ms. Bagley-Jones was being optomistic when she said 'one week'. My first submission took a fair bit longer to get posted, as did my second. There is a severe shortage of editor time on this site, unfortunately, so things go slow these days. Don't worry, most of us find it's worth the wait. I designed my second variant while waiting impatiently for the first one to get posted, as a way to relieve the tension. In the meantime, welcome to Wonderland (and check out Alice - one of the many fine variants here). Enjoy. Joe

Modern Shatranj. A bridge between modern chess and the historic game of Shatranj. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
💡📝Joe Joyce wrote on Thu, Feb 16, 2006 11:58 PM EST:
Thanks for the comment. It's nice to know people read this stuff. You make an interesting case for the evolution of the bishop. I don't necessarily agree, but I also don't disagree. I looked at your examples, and you have several good points. I freely admit (and have previously admitted - I also wrote a comment 'shatranj2chess' that I took most of for the MS discussion) that I offered speculation only on the origins of the modern FIDE game. What I did was to take the smallest possible changes from shatranj that moved it directly toward modern chess, and saw 6 of them in piece movement. I consider each one a least change from the previous state. I have little to no idea of the actual history of chess. I was merely trying to put together an easiest possible path in discrete steps from one to the other. As a path of least action, it could not include larger boards and more pieces. Your version is easily as likely to be 'right' as is mine, though I strongly suspect neither is. I also 'strongly suspect' (aka: 'know') there are people here who could give us accurate info. Again, thanks.

[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Joe Joyce wrote on Sun, Feb 26, 2006 11:40 AM EST:
I feel I have to weigh in on the subject of re-using grand,
well-established names for new variants, as I am soon to post presets for
my 'Two Large Shatranj Variants', respectively Great and Grand Shatranj.
I agree in general with the opinions expressed by Fergus Duniho and Gary
Gifford on Grand Chess 2, but there are circumstances where this general
prohibition of re-using a name should not hold. Specifically, I wrote to
Christian Freeling to ask his permission to call one variant 'Grand
Shatranj', and before I posted 2Large I sent him a copy to vet. Had he in
any way objected to me about the name or the game, I would have changed it;
and should he have any objections now or in the future, I will change it.
Should it be felt necessary, I can produce the emails. In my posting of
2Large, I make clear exactly what my debt to Mr. Freeling and Grand Chess
is. Under these circumstances, I feel my use of the name and setup for
Grand Shatranj is acceptable, even if I am over-reaching. Now, back to
having fun.

Joe Joyce wrote on Sun, Feb 26, 2006 12:14 PM EST:
Christine, you're right! Do you think I should write to her?

Joe Joyce wrote on Sun, Feb 26, 2006 01:04 PM EST:
Fergus, my objections were, to a great extent, pro forma. But the fact is
that my variant is deliberately named 'Grand' to refer to Mr.
Freeling's game, and I made that clear in my write-up. I deliberately
copied the setup to solve the problems I felt existed with my 10x8 variant
because I think the Grand Chess board and setup is an elegant solution to
those problems. What I didn't want was people to see presets for Grand
Shatranj and think: 'Oh, great, here's some idiot that didn't get the
message, even though it's in black and white' (even though on my machine
it's in black lettering on a grey background). 
Wow, there are several messages here, while I'm typing this - sorry,
Fergus, saw your comment between my answer to christine and edited it to
name her rather than have it look like a reply to your comment (this is
getting convoluted).
Okay, back to the original topic. Whatever that was. I truly don't see a
problem with naming something after something else under these
conditions:
1) with appropriate permission;
2) if even the direct descendants of the inventor are unaware they are the
heirs. In this case, they can't come after you. :-) Okay, if the origins
of the name are lost in antiquity might be a better rule.
Gary, if it was good enough, and it followed #1 & 2 above well, heck, do
it - you playtested Grand Shatranj I enough! And thanks for that.
And, finally, Christine, no, I'm just a plodder with no creativity...

Joe Joyce wrote on Sun, Feb 26, 2006 03:00 PM EST:
Gary, I'd be complimented if you put out a 'Grand Shatranj II', but
Christine has already claimed the name.
Christine, you have to send me the ZRF first, otherwise I let Gary have
the name. 
David, I'm perfectly willing to have the naming controversy here, under
the title of 'Grand Shatranj', because the controversy has some
legitimacy (and I don't mind a little advertising of my games either ;)
Since I firmly believe Grand Shatranj (and Great Shatranj, which you
playtested) are good games, and neither is out separately yet for this
controversy to spill all over their pages, then it is a better forum than
the game of some poor caught-in-the-crossfire poster who was probably
trying to praise the original game. Besides, I'm hoping that you put out
a Great Shatranj game with your own unique stamp on it. ;-)
Seriously, it may be good to have an editorial policy about names. I think
it should be simple. 'No Poaching!' would be a good first approximation,
but I believe it needs to go further than that. My 2 rules suggestion:
appropriate permission or lost in antiquity I believe are at least a good
start. The lost in antiquity rule allows us to call our games 'chess' as
Fergus has indirectly pointed out. (Christine, you got 1st crack at GC2, so
Fergus gets credit for that - okay, you get credit first, but I'm not
going to admit it.)  But I honestly don't see a problem with Gary doing a
variant of my game and using the name GC2 or 3 or whatever, as long as he
got my permission in advance. And I would want to see the game to be sure
it measured up (or down, as the case may be) to my standards as set in the
'original'. If those conditions obtained, and were demonstrated to the
editor, then the name should stand. 
And now I've got too much of a headache to actually make my chess moves.
This being serious stuff is not fun. Well, fortunately, I'm rarely really
serious, seriously! Now, back to having fun.

Grander Chess. A variant of Christian Freeling's Grand Chess. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joe Joyce wrote on Sun, Feb 26, 2006 10:42 PM EST:
Once again, I'll put my foot in my mouth up to my shoulder.
David, I think I see what you're doing. Here I am. This name is a little
tacky. But, reading the rules, I see Mr. Scanlon is paying homage to Grand
Chess in his own way. 
Gary and I have agreed, in an exchange of private emails, that people
might take me too seriously. I mention this partly for completeness, but
mostly because I wish to copy 1 sentence from my email to Gary for
Christine - 'As far as Christine, without talking to her, I'd bet she
has no such animal as a GS game to come out, it's most likely her sense
of humor coming out.' Hah! Got you on the first try! :)
Roberto, you have the best line about the rules of this game. Thank you.
Terms like maximum logical consistancy always worry me. I'm glad others
are bothered, too.
To finish seriously, there may be no legal problem with names like More
Granderer Chess II, I'm not up on copyright law. But as a community, this
group can exert social pressure, fairly or unfairly. What are the community
standards, and what is fair?

Joe Joyce wrote on Mon, Feb 27, 2006 11:36 PM EST:
Okay, Gary, I was trying to be nice and let him down easy. A. O. Myers does
a discussion of Grander Chess (first item under See Also) in which he
disagrees with K. Scanlon's elimination of en passant and treatment of
stalemate, but agrees with the new piece placement. Now, I also think en
passant should stay. And if there is a problem with stalemate, then give
the stalemater 2/3 of a point and the stalematee 1/3. That satisfies my
sense of what feels right. I'd even take a little issue with piece
placement, as the knights are, in both variants, pushed farther away from
the middle, thus weakening them somewhat, but I don't see an alternative
that's better or even as good as the current knight placement. (Obviously
I use the same setup in GS.) Finally, I don't believe the name is
justified. Fergus makes excellent points and sense in his comments. Mr.
Scanlon tried, but the group consensus is that he obviously did not
succeed. What he did, at most, was create a modest variant of Grand Chess
with a most immodest name. 
Of course, that puts many of us, perhaps me especially, at risk for our
games' names.

[Subject Thread] [Add Response]
Joe Joyce wrote on Wed, Mar 15, 2006 08:08 PM EST:
Sam, I believe you have crossed the Rubicon into wargame design with your
game proposal in CoT. You have all pieces moving each turn (in what
order?) and ranged combat with odds for success, a hex board and terrain;
all you need is to call it a wargame, and maybe add a combat results table
for all 'combats' between 2 opposing pieces, not just the ranged ones. I
would recommend to anyone HG Wells 'Little Wars' for a fascinating look
at wargaming from some of the history and how to of wargaming to pictures
of an influential author on hands and knees in miniature battle scenes.
It's not quite chess. I see a line between chess variants and wargames
that is crossed several times in Crossing the Rubicon.

Wormhole Chess. When a piece leaves a square, it `folds' together. (8x8, Cells: 64) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Joe Joyce wrote on Fri, Mar 17, 2006 10:45 PM EST:Excellent ★★★★★
Nice idea very nicely done. Fine piece choices. Have to rate it excellent.

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