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Tenjiku Shogi. Fire Demons burn surrounding enemies, Generals capture jumping many pieces. (16x16, Cells: 256) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
📝H. G. Muller wrote on Thu, Mar 14 07:34 AM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from 01:20 AM:

However, I did notice a bug that causes the promotion choices to replace pieces on the squares they are shown on if you select something other than a promotion choice.

OK, fixed that.

Finding the mate threats is also significantly sped up in this version, by the use of a mate-killer heuristic: once it finds a checkmate it searches the same sequence of its own moves first in order to refute alternative opponent moves. As in large variants almost all moves do the same (namely nothing to address the problem), that makes their refutation almost optimal, and partly compensates for the slowdown by lines with checks in them being searched deeper.

The search algorithm now extends the depth a full ply for the first check evasion it tries, (at any depth, not just at the horizon), and half a ply for alternative  check evasions. After 1.j6 it now finds 1... SEn11 after 1.6, 3 of 4.6 sec at 1.5/2/2.5 ply. After 2.BGi6 it then finds 2... m11 in 12 or 33 sec (2/2.5 ply). After 1... o11? it finds VGn9! in 8.6 or 14 sec (2/2.5 ply). Not yet with a mate score, but because it sees the opponent has to sac its GG to push the mate over the horizon. At 3 ply it does get the mate score in 18.6 sec.

[Edit] Oh, and the Diagram had a bug. FD and +WB did not burn when capturing other FD, because there was one @ to few in their row of the capture matrix (for the empty square). Fixed that too.


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Thu, Mar 14 01:20 AM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Wed Mar 13 08:24 PM:

Much better.

However, I did notice a bug that causes the promotion choices to replace pieces on the squares they are shown on if you select something other than a promotion choice.

Replication Example: Have a Rook General capture the opposing Rook General, and then when the promotion options show up click on any occupied space other than the highlighted squares.


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Mar 13 08:24 PM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from Fri May 26 2023 05:53 PM:

OK, how about this?


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Wed, Mar 13 05:31 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 12:52 PM:

Hmm...I think simply showing the promotion options with a highlighted background is better. The plus and minus don't really tell me what my choices are (they are basically covering up the images), but do better at showing that a promotion option exists.

Personally, I'd omit the markers and highlight the background with the same color that is used for Chess-style promotions (#8080FF), while also showing instructions at the top (e.g. "Click icon of piece of choice").

Perhaps the color for promotion highlights could even be set with a parameter (e.g. promoHighlight=#8080FF) in case the selected board shades are too similar to the default color.

P.S. Also, it would be really nice to be able to deselect a piece in the holdings like you can with pieces on the board. Currently, this is not possible.


🔔Notification on Wed, Mar 13 02:13 PM UTC:

The author, H. G. Muller, has updated this page.


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Mar 13 12:52 PM UTC in reply to Florin Lupusoru from Mon Mar 11 03:28 PM:

I now improved the new Diagram script for recognizing checkmates faster, and it now deals with the opening threats 1.Pj6 and 1.Pj6 SE11n 2.BGi6 at 2.5 ply. It also punishes the wrong defense 1.Pj6 o11?

This version uses marker symbols for indicating the promotion/deferral choice. What do you think?


Florin Lupusoru wrote on Mon, Mar 11 03:28 PM UTC:
  • c1, n1 Ferocious Luopard (FvW)

I hope, you meant to say Leopard. 


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Mon, Mar 11 03:18 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Sat Mar 9 09:43 PM:

I think the new system is much better, but some instructions at the top would also help (e.g. "Click on icon of piece of choice" for the current system).

It may also help to have a unique highlight color for the promotions in the current system, such as magenta or the blue you use for Chess-style promotions.


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, Mar 9 09:43 PM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from Fri May 26 2023 05:53 PM:

I created a new version of the Interactive Diagram script, which currently is only used by the Tenjiku Shogi diagram to which this is a reply. It uses a different method for selecting Shogi promotions, and I would like some feedback on whether this is better than the old method ("Promote? yes/no" links above the board), or that it just is confusing. What happens now is that the destination and a square next to it get highlighted in red, and display the two pieces between which you must choose. Clicking one of those then completes the move. So double-clicking the destination is enough to promote.

The AI is now also searches deeper on lines with checks in them, with as a consequence that it even sees the mate-in-2-threat in Tenjiku Shogi after 1.j6 SEn11 2.BGi6 at a setting of 2 ply.

The I.D. (at 2.5 ply) beat Jocly (at 10 min) at the Modern Tenjiku Shogi correspondence championship!

[Edit] An alternative method for the promotions is to define special highlight markers for promotion and deferral, rather than highlighting by (red) color and displaying the pieces to choose between. That could be less confusing than just seeing pieces appear that don't belong there. The problem is that square-covering markers would have to be dependent on the square size that is in use. But using a red disk with a + on it for promotion, and a green one with an = for deferral, which just fit into a 33x33 cell might be usable.


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Fri, May 26, 2023 05:53 PM UTC:

Here's an Interactive Diagram for Tenjiku Shogi (following Wikipedia/CVP ruleset) with the new ruleset used on Wikipedia, which was edited to remove the rule against capturing royalty via range-jump. The GC preset has been updated as well.

satellite=wikipedia files=16 ranks=16 holdingsType=0 promoOffset=35 promoZone=5 maxPromote=30 promoChoice=+ royal=35 royal=44 captureMatrix=/"25/.27^^.4^3.8^.13^^..^^=/"//"3/.33^3.8^.17^^=/.34^^.8^.18^=//"22/.27^^.4^3.8^.13^^..^^=/"///.33^3.8^.17^^=/.34^^.8^.18^=//@67/" stalemate=win graphicsDir=https://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/tenjikushogi/ whitePrefix= blackPrefix=flip/ lightShade=#FFFF80 darkShade=#FFFF80 graphicsType=gif squareSize=36 symmetry=rotate firstRank=1 rimColor=#000000 coordColor=#FFFFFF newClick=1 trackPieces=65 trackedTypes=2 spell=burn spellZone=K blastZone=K atomicCapture=0 pawn:P:fW:Pawn:a5-p5 dog:D:bFfW:Dog:e6,l6 iron general:I:fFfW:IronGeneral:d1,m1 copper general:C:fFvW:CopperGeneral:e1,l1 silver general:S:FfW:SilverGeneral:f1,k1 ferocious leopard:FL:FvW:FerociousLeopard:c1,n1 gold general:G:WfF:GoldGeneral:g1,j1 blind tiger:BT:FsbW:BlindTiger:f2,k2 drunk elephant:DE:FsfW:DrunkenElephant:i1 knight:N:fN:Knight:b1,o1 kirin:KY:FD:Kyrin:g2 phoenix:PH:WA:Phoenix:j2 lance:L:fR:Lance:a1,p1 reverse chariot:RV:vR:ReverseChariot:a2,p2 side mover:SM:vWsR:SideMover:a4,p4 vertical mover:VM:sWvR:VerticalMover:b4,o4 side soldier:SS:bWsRfW2:SideSoldier:a3,p3 vertical soldier:VS:bWfRsW2:VerticalSoldier:b3,o3 bishop:B:B:Bishop:c3,n3 rook:R:R:Rook:c4,n4 dragon horse:DH:BW:DragonHorse:d3,m3 dragon king:DK:RF:DragonKing:e3,l3 horned falcon:HF:BsbRfWfDfcavWfabW:HornedFalcon:d4,m4 soaring eagle:SE:RbBfFfAfcavFfabF:SoaringEagle:e4,l4 lion:LN:KNADcaKmcabK:Lion:h2 queen:Q:Q:FreeKing:i2 bishop general:BG:B(paf)0cB:BishopGeneral:f4,k4 rook general:RG:R(paf)0cR:RookGeneral:g4,j4 chariot soldier:CS:BvRsW2:ChariotSoldier:c2,d2,m2,n2 water buffalo:WB:BsRvW2:WaterBuffalo:f3,k3 free eagle:FE:QADcaFmcabF:FreeEagle:i3 lion hawk:LH:BWNADcaKmcabK:LionHawk:h3 vice general:VG:B(paf)0cB(a)2KabK:ViceGeneral:i4 great general:GG:Q(paf)0cQ:GreatGeneral:h4 value=3500 king:K:K:King:h1 tokin:+P:WfF:PawnP: multi general:+D:bBfR:DogP: vertical soldier:+I:bWfRsW2:IronGeneralP: side mover:+C:vWsR:CopperGeneralP: vertical mover:+S:sWvR:SilverGeneralP: bishop:+FL:B:FerociousLeopardP: rook:+G:R:GoldGeneralP: flying stag:+BT:FsWvR:BlindTigerP: prince:+DE:K:DrunkenElephantP: side soldier:+N:bWsRfW2:KnightP: lion:+KY:KNADcaKmcabK:KyrinP: queen:+PH:Q:PhoenixP: white horse:+L:fBvR:Lance: whale:+RV:bBvR:ReverseChariotP: free boar:+SM:BsR:SideMoverP: flying ox:+VM:BvR:VerticalMoverP: water buffalo:+SS:BsRvW2:SideSoldierP: chariot soldier:+VS:BvRsW2:VerticalSoldierP: dragon horse:+B:BW:BishopP: dragon king:+R:RF:RookP: horned falcon:+DH:BsbRfWfDfcavWfabW:DragonHorseP: soaring eagle:+DK:RbBfFfAfcavFfabF:DragonKingP: bishop general:+HF:B(paf)0cB:HornedFalconP: rook general:+SE:R(paf)0cR:SoaringEagleP: lion hawk:+LN:BWNADcaKmcabK:LionP: free eagle:+Q:QADcaFmcabF:FreeKingP: vice general:+BG:B(paf)0cB(a)2KabK:BishopGeneralP: great general:+RG:Q(paf)0cQ:RookGeneralP: value=3500 heavenly tetrarch:+CS:jvhQjsQ3cabK:ChariotSoldierP: fire demon:+WB:shQ(a)2KabK:WaterBuffaloP: fire demon:FD:shQ(a)2KabK:FireDemon:g3,j3

Edward Webb wrote on Mon, Mar 20, 2023 11:00 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★

I read on the wiki talk page for Tenjiku about the idea that jumping generals could have been intended to do more than just jump-capture.

The start position shows the generals in front of the Fire Demons, both straight ahead and diagonally. There is no opportunity for jumping generals to capture Fire Demons in the start position, which is intentional.

It doesn't seem right that there is so much protection for Fire Demons, yet in some versions of the game, the King could be threatened and captured without even being able to evade the attack, as it's boxed in.

(In fact, the Bishop General could just mate the opponent's King on the first move if there were no restrictions on jumping.)

If the generals could jump whenever they wanted as far as they liked, the game would become even more tactically sharp than it already is. However, it doesn't break the game.

The Great General can't jump two squares diagonally to threaten one of the Fire Demons as the Rook General would capture it.

The best the Bishop Generals can do is to manoeuvre and attack a Horned Falcon or Soaring Eagle.

The idea that jumping generals could capture all of the opposing pieces they jumped over in one turn is plausible. I don't know if the game would break, but the inventor(s) of Tenjiku weren't sentimental about pieces — allowing Fire Demons to punch large holes into positions — so having more pieces do the same seems logical.

The Great General could just capture the Vice General; Free Eagle; Queen; Drunk Elephant; and a Pawn on the first move (with check). This doesn't seem intentional.

One of the Bishop Generals could move to the edge of the board and threaten to capture a Soaring Eagle; Water Buffalo; Phoenix; Drunk Elephant; and a Pawn. The Soaring Eagle can leap out of the way, though.

Otherwise, everything is sufficiently well defended that jumping generals couldn't capture a total of anything worth more than themselves, as they are even stronger than their current form.

That could be why Fire Demons are so powerful — with burning and sliding and an area move — because they would be ecliped otherwise by the jumping generals.

The board size (16×16) and large number of pieces that do very little makes more sense if there were even more crazy pieces. The game might devolve into a capture-fest, but that might have been the intention.

Whoever had the imagination to create this game has to be admired. I consider this to be the most ambitious of all the historical variants as its construction is so delicately balanced, even with the ambiguity in the rules themselves.


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Fri, Feb 24, 2023 06:59 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Wed Feb 22 09:22 PM:

I have been streamlining the AI of the Diagram a bit, to make it possible to play variants like Tenjiku with a (more) reasonable thinking time. One source of trouble was that the jumping generals always have many captures, which tends to blow up Quiescence Search, even though they are all bad. To combat this I implemented more aggressive pruning of high x low captures of protected pieces. Such moves were already pruned, but only 'after the fact', as it was not known in advance whether a piece was protected. So it such moves would still be tried, and all replies generated. It would then abort when on of these reply moves could recapture. I now use information from the preceding move, recording all friendly pieces that blocked moves that had capture ability. These were protected before the move. I now prune H x L capture of these pieces in the next ply. This is not 100% reliable, as the preceding move could have abandoned a piece it was protecting, or block a protection by another piece. But it is a very fast method, and the idea is that the speedup, through which you could afford larger search depth, would more than compensate for the occasional inaccuracy.

Another source of inefficiency was duplicate moves. Since the AI does not use a transposition table, it would not recognize that a move leading to a position it already searched was a duplicat, and it would search it again. Ideally duplicat moves should not occur, but it is often cumbersome to make an XBetza description that avoids them. (E.g. for BA the A leap is a duplicat if the square it leaps over is empty.) E.g. B(paf)0cB includes a plain cB  next to B, duplicating all non-hopping captures. This could be avoded by writing the non-hopping part as mB, but that gives misleadin highlighting. Particularly disastrous were the area moves: aaK has 8x7x7 = 392 paths when centralized on an empty board (and together with aK and K it makes 356). But there are of course only 49 possible destinations, so each of those can be reached through about 9 paths on average. I now let the move generator suppress repeated destinations for the same piece, if there are no locust squares.

I also hand-tuned the value of the Great General upward; based on its move the Vice General would be worth more, because the value estimates ignore the blocking power. This also distracted (and thus slowed down) the search, by thinking that GG x VG* (kamikaze) was a good move, worth searching.

As a result the time it needs to play 1... SEn11 after 1.j6 at 2.5 ply went down from 47 sec to about 7.

In the process of debugging this I also stumbled on a bug in the piece tracking; at game level this works fine, but in the AI it did not. (Because at some point moves for an enemy piece are generated to test if it delivers check, and this made it track pieces of the opposit color.) This is now fixed too.


Of course Modern Tenjiku Shogi is a game that is impossible to play without opening knowledge, which the Diagram doesn't have at all. So it will still lose in a few moves against a player who knows what he is doing. But at least it plays reasonable moves.


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Feb 22, 2023 09:22 PM UTC:

This is a copy of that same Diagram, adapted to play according to the 'modern' rules. (I.e. where generals can jump-capture the King, and the FD has a vertical move.) Just to test how long it needs to seet that after 1.j6 there is a mate threat.

[Edit] Not bad! After fixing a bug in scoring the loss of a piece making a kamikaze move, it plays 1... SEn11 in reply to 1. j6 even at the default setting of 2.5 ply. And it takes 47 sec on my PC to play that move.

satellite=modern files=16 ranks=16 holdingsType=0 promoOffset=35 promoZone=5 maxPromote=30 promoChoice=+ royal=35 royal=44 captureMatrix=/"25/.27^^.4^3.8^.13^^..^^=/"//"3/.33^3.8^.17^^=/.34^^.8^.18^=//"22/.27^^.4^3.8^.13^^..^^=/"///.33^3.8^.17^^=/.34^^.8^.18^=//@66/" stalemate=win graphicsDir=https://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/tenjikushogi/ whitePrefix= blackPrefix=flip/ lightShade=#FFFF80 darkShade=#FFFF80 graphicsType=gif squareSize=36 symmetry=rotate firstRank=1 rimColor=#000000 coordColor=#FFFFFF newClick=1 trackPieces=65 trackedTypes=2 spell=burn spellZone=K blastZone=K atomicCapture=0 pawn:P:fW:Pawn:a5-p5 dog:D:bFfW:Dog:e6,l6 iron general:I:fFfW:IronGeneral:d1,m1 copper general:C:fFvW:CopperGeneral:e1,l1 silver general:S:FfW:SilverGeneral:f1,k1 ferocious leopard:FL:FvW:FerociousLeopard:c1,n1 gold general:G:WfF:GoldGeneral:g1,j1 blind tiger:BT:FsbW:BlindTiger:f2,k2 drunk elephant:DE:FsfW:DrunkenElephant:i1 knight:N:fN:Knight:b1,o1 kirin:KY:FD:Kyrin:g2 phoenix:PH:WA:Phoenix:j2 lance:L:fR:Lance:a1,p1 reverse chariot:RV:vR:ReverseChariot:a2,p2 side mover:SM:vWsR:SideMover:a4,p4 vertical mover:VM:sWvR:VerticalMover:b4,o4 side soldier:SS:bWsRfW2:SideSoldier:a3,p3 vertical soldier:VS:bWfRsW2:VerticalSoldier:b3,o3 bishop:B:B:Bishop:c3,n3 rook:R:R:Rook:c4,n4 dragon horse:DH:BW:DragonHorse:d3,m3 dragon king:DK:RF:DragonKing:e3,l3 horned falcon:HF:BsbRfWfDfcavWfabW:HornedFalcon:d4,m4 soaring eagle:SE:RbBfFfAfcavFfabF:SoaringEagle:e4,l4 lion:LN:KNADcaKmcabK:Lion:h2 queen:Q:Q:FreeKing:i2 bishop general:BG:B(paf)0cB:BishopGeneral:f4,k4 rook general:RG:R(paf)0cR:RookGeneral:g4,j4 chariot soldier:CS:BvRsW2:ChariotSoldier:c2,d2,m2,n2 water buffalo:WB:BsRvW2:WaterBuffalo:f3,k3 free eagle:FE:QADcaFmcabF:FreeEagle:i3 lion hawk:LH:BWNADcaKmcabK:LionHawk:h3 vice general:VG:B(paf)0cB(a)2KabK:ViceGeneral:i4 great general:GG:Q(paf)0cQ:GreatGeneral:h4 value=3500 king:K:K:King:h1 tokin:+P:WfF:PawnP: multi general:+D:bBfR:DogP: vertical soldier:+I:bWfRsW2:IronGeneralP: side mover:+C:vWsR:CopperGeneralP: vertical mover:+S:sWvR:SilverGeneralP: bishop:+FL:B:FerociousLeopardP: rook:+G:R:GoldGeneralP: flying stag:+BT:FsWvR:BlindTigerP: prince:+DE:K:DrunkenElephantP: side soldier:+N:bWsRfW2:KnightP: lion:+KY:KNADcaKmcabK:KyrinP: queen:+PH:Q:PhoenixP: white horse:+L:fBvR:Lance: whale:+RV:bBvR:ReverseChariotP: free boar:+SM:BsR:SideMoverP: flying ox:+VM:BvR:VerticalMoverP: water buffalo:+SS:BsRvW2:SideSoldierP: chariot soldier:+VS:BvRsW2:VerticalSoldierP: dragon horse:+B:BW:BishopP: dragon king:+R:RF:RookP: horned falcon:+DH:BsbRfWfDfcavWfabW:DragonHorseP: soaring eagle:+DK:RbBfFfAfcavFfabF:DragonKingP: bishop general:+HF:B(paf)0cB:HornedFalconP: rook general:+SE:R(paf)0cR:SoaringEagleP: lion hawk:+LN:BWNADcaKmcabK:LionP: free eagle:+Q:QADcaFmcabF:FreeKingP: vice general:+BG:B(paf)0cB(a)2KabK:BishopGeneralP: great general:+RG:Q(paf)0cQ:RookGeneralP: value=3500 heavenly tetrarch:+CS:jvhQjsQ3cabK:ChariotSoldierP: fire demon:+WB:vhQ(a)2KabK:WaterBuffaloP: fire demon:FD:vhQ(a)2KabK:FireDemon:g3,j3

📝H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Feb 22, 2023 01:01 PM UTC:

March 1 the next addition yearly correspondence championship for Tenjiku Shogi will start.

You can still register by sending a mail to [email protected] .

Perhaps that would be a good opportunity to 'feature' this variant.


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Tue, Feb 14, 2023 09:07 PM UTC:

Here's an Interactive Diagram for Tenjiku Shogi (following Wikipedia/CVP ruleset).

satellite=wikipedia files=16 ranks=16 holdingsType=0 promoOffset=35 promoZone=5 maxPromote=30 promoChoice=+ royal=35 royal=44 captureMatrix=/"25/.27^^.4^3.8^.13^^..^^=/"//"3/.33^3.8^.17^^=/.34^^.8^.18^=//"22/.27^^.4^3.8^.13^^..^^=/"///.33^3.8^.17^^=/.34^^.8^.18^=//@66/" stalemate=win graphicsDir=https://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/tenjikushogi/ whitePrefix= blackPrefix=flip/ lightShade=#FFFF80 darkShade=#FFFF80 graphicsType=gif squareSize=36 symmetry=rotate firstRank=1 rimColor=#000000 coordColor=#FFFFFF newClick=1 trackPieces=65 trackedTypes=2 spell=burn spellZone=K blastZone=K atomicCapture=0 pawn:P:fW:Pawn:a5-p5 dog:D:bFfW:Dog:e6,l6 iron general:I:fFfW:IronGeneral:d1,m1 copper general:C:fFvW:CopperGeneral:e1,l1 silver general:S:FfW:SilverGeneral:f1,k1 ferocious leopard:FL:FvW:FerociousLeopard:c1,n1 gold general:G:WfF:GoldGeneral:g1,j1 blind tiger:BT:FsbW:BlindTiger:f2,k2 drunk elephant:DE:FsfW:DrunkenElephant:i1 knight:N:fN:Knight:b1,o1 kirin:KY:FD:Kyrin:g2 phoenix:PH:WA:Phoenix:j2 lance:L:fR:Lance:a1,p1 reverse chariot:RV:vR:ReverseChariot:a2,p2 side mover:SM:vWsR:SideMover:a4,p4 vertical mover:VM:sWvR:VerticalMover:b4,o4 side soldier:SS:bWsRfW2:SideSoldier:a3,p3 vertical soldier:VS:bWfRsW2:VerticalSoldier:b3,o3 bishop:B:B:Bishop:c3,n3 rook:R:R:Rook:c4,n4 dragon horse:DH:BW:DragonHorse:d3,m3 dragon king:DK:RF:DragonKing:e3,l3 horned falcon:HF:BsbRfWfDfcavWfabW:HornedFalcon:d4,m4 soaring eagle:SE:RbBfFfAfcavFfabF:SoaringEagle:e4,l4 lion:LN:KNADcaKmcabK:Lion:h2 queen:Q:Q:FreeKing:i2 bishop general:BG:B(paf)0kcB:BishopGeneral:f4,k4 rook general:RG:R(paf)0kcR:RookGeneral:g4,j4 chariot soldier:CS:BvRsW2:ChariotSoldier:c2,d2,m2,n2 water buffalo:WB:BsRvW2:WaterBuffalo:f3,k3 free eagle:FE:QADcaFmcabF:FreeEagle:i3 lion hawk:LH:BWNADcaKmcabK:LionHawk:h3 vice general:VG:B(paf)0kcB(a)2KabK:ViceGeneral:i4 great general:GG:Q(paf)0kcQ:GreatGeneral:h4 value=3500 king:K:K:King:h1 tokin:+P:WfF:PawnP: multi general:+D:bBfR:DogP: vertical soldier:+I:bWfRsW2:IronGeneralP: side mover:+C:vWsR:CopperGeneralP: vertical mover:+S:sWvR:SilverGeneralP: bishop:+FL:B:FerociousLeopardP: rook:+G:R:GoldGeneralP: flying stag:+BT:FsWvR:BlindTigerP: prince:+DE:K:DrunkenElephantP: side soldier:+N:bWsRfW2:KnightP: lion:+KY:KNADcaKmcabK:KyrinP: queen:+PH:Q:PhoenixP: white horse:+L:fBvR:Lance: whale:+RV:bBvR:ReverseChariotP: free boar:+SM:BsR:SideMoverP: flying ox:+VM:BvR:VerticalMoverP: water buffalo:+SS:BsRvW2:SideSoldierP: chariot soldier:+VS:BvRsW2:VerticalSoldierP: dragon horse:+B:BW:BishopP: dragon king:+R:RF:RookP: horned falcon:+DH:BsbRfWfDfcavWfabW:DragonHorseP: soaring eagle:+DK:RbBfFfAfcavFfabF:DragonKingP: bishop general:+HF:B(paf)0kcB:HornedFalconP: rook general:+SE:R(paf)0kcR:SoaringEagleP: lion hawk:+LN:BWNADcaKmcabK:LionP: free eagle:+Q:QADcaFmcabF:FreeKingP: vice general:+BG:B(paf)0kcB(a)2KabK:BishopGeneralP: great general:+RG:Q(paf)0kcQ:RookGeneralP: value=3500 heavenly tetrarch:+CS:jvhQjsQ3cabK:ChariotSoldierP: fire demon:+WB:shQ(a)2KabK:WaterBuffaloP: fire demon:FD:shQ(a)2KabK:FireDemon:g3,j3

📝H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Feb 8, 2023 02:56 PM UTC in reply to Bn Em from 12:23 PM:

Ah OK, I see it now. Burning is configured through the captureMatrix, which makes it piece-type selective, both w.r.t. attacker and captured piece. But the size of that matrix is of course dependent on the number of participating piece types. I had added a few types since the first version of the Diagram, but had forgotten to extend the row for the Fire Dragon with more burns, so that capturing the few pieces latest in the list did no longer trigger burning.

I am still not completely happy how this works, because the way the moves are encoded as burns now excludes they could also promote. So it would be impossible to burn on the move where the Queen promotes to Fire Dragon, even if I wanted that. Pehaps I should change the standard script such that when a promotion occurs (which could also have be specified by the capture matrix) that it consults the capture matrix (again) to see if burning was specified for the promoted piece making that same move.

BTW, I now altered the promotion of the Diagonal Jumper (= Bishop General) from Minister to a 'Lion'. Which in this case does not have the power of the Chu-Shogi Lion, but only a (two-step) area move. It seemed more logical to use that move than to give it the usual KNAD. The Minister was an embarrasingly weak promotion for the Diagonal Jumper, as it is worth less. (But this promotion could still be useful, as a Minister has mating potential, which the color-bound Diagonal Jumper lacks.) Now it promotes to a strong piece (the Diagram values it as nearly a Queen), which could contibute to its value.


Bn Em wrote on Wed, Feb 8, 2023 12:23 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from Tue Feb 7 08:52 PM:

Replacement capture should work normally

Can confirm that it does for most pieces, and indeed FD's burn after most captures, but FDxFD seems to suppress burning fsr


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Tue, Feb 7, 2023 08:52 PM UTC in reply to Daniel Zacharias from 08:24 PM:

Replacement capture should work normally. If Fire Dragons try to burn each other, the moving one is destroyed, and won't burn anything else. Just like the Fire Demon in Tenjiku Shogi.

A few minutes ago I was editing the Diagram, slipping in two extra pieces. There might have been a short transient period when the wrong piece had the burning properties. And you might have been so unlucky to try it at exactly that moment. Now it should work.

I was not really happy with the fact that there were two Kirins and Phoenixes on each side; that is very un-shogi-like. The Kirins on b2 / i9 are essential for preventing the initial position to be a forced win. (These play the role of the Eagles in Tenjiku Shogi.) But those on i2 / b9 weren't. So I now replaced those by Phoenixes. (Sorry Jean-Louis, an off-center asymmetry. ;-) ) And replaced the Phoenixes on a2,j2 / a9/j9 by a Side Mover.

This raised the problem of how to make that Side Mover promote. It would be logical to let it promote to Ninja, as these have the same footprint, and the Ninja is stronger. But I had used the Ninja as promoted Minister. So I now changed the Minister's promotion to Rook General (which was not participating before. In Tenjiku Shogi the RG aren't very useful; their fate is to be traded for each other.) That at least makes the promoted Minister stronger than a promoted Gold, which I think it should be, because the Minister is stronger than a Gold. Not that the jumping would be very important in the end-game. But Ministers and Side Movers are very difficult to promote anyway, only stepping forward.

This raises the number of participating types to 27 (20 different moves, of which 3 only obtainable through promotion).


Daniel Zacharias wrote on Tue, Feb 7, 2023 08:24 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 01:56 PM:

I am tempted to submit the following variant ('Minjiku Shogi'):

Is it intended that the Fire Dragon doesn't burn when capturing another Fire Dragon?


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Tue, Feb 7, 2023 01:56 PM UTC:

I am tempted to submit the following variant ('Minjiku Shogi'):

satellite=minjiku files=10 ranks=12 promoZone=4 maxPromote=13 promoOffset=13 symmetry=rotate graphicsDir=/graphics.dir/alfaeriePNG/ squareSize=50 graphicsType=png lightShade=#ffff80 darkShade=#bf998c rimColor=#077208 holeColor=#077208 coordColor=#ffff40 borders=0 firstRank=0 useMarkers=1 newClick=1 trackPieces=26 spell=burn spellZone=F blastZone=F atomicCapture=0 captureMatrix=/////////10^.6^.6^^.^.10^.6^.6^^.^///////10^.6^.6^^.^.10^.6^.6^^.^///////24^^.^.24^^.^/25^.^.25^.^/@27 hole::::a0-j0 pawn::fW:chinesepawn:a3-j3 silver:::silvergeneral:b1,i1 gold:::goldgeneral:c1,h1 minister::K:guard:e0 kirin:Y:FD:warmachineferz:b2 phoenix:X:WA:elephantwazir:i2 lateral mover:L:sRvW:sidemover:a2,j2 bishop::::e1,f1 rook::::a1,j1 diagonal jumper::B(paf)8cB:vao2:c2,h2 viper::BcabW::g2 cobra::RcabF::d2 queen::::d1 gold:+P::promotedshogipawn: bishop:+S::: rook:+G::: orthogonal jumper:+M:R(paf)8R:cannon: samurai:+Y:NcabK:knightguard: queen:+X::: ninja:+L:FsjRcabW:sidemovergeneral: viper:+B:BcabW:: cobra:+R:RcabF:: lion:+D:KaK:: area jumper::B(paf)8cBWafsKasF:vao:e2 jumping general::Q(paf)8cQ:paovao:f2 value=2000 fire dragon::QafsKasF:dragon:g1 king::K::f0

The Fire Dragon burns all enemies diagonally adjacent to its destination. (Except those that are Fire Dragons.)

Pieces landing diagonally adjacent to an enemy Fire Dragon (including Fire Dragons) get burned instantly.

The jumpers can jump arbitrarily many pieces for capturing, but not equal or higher-ranked jumpers or Kings. They can jump-capture those, or deliver check, though.

Some of the moves of Viper, Cobra, Samurai and Ninja are rifle captures ('igui').

If I can prove that it is not a forced win for white, that is.

Note that it is entirely implemented without user-supplied JavaScript, using the captureMatrix to define the jumper ranking and Dragon burning, and using the trackPieces with spell=burn to cause the passive burning. The shape of the burn zone is controlled through blastZone=F and spellZone=F.


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Sun, Jan 29, 2023 10:38 AM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from Sat Jan 28 09:36 PM:

Indeed, a user promotion choice does overrule everything else. If a fixed promotion is required for pieces that would offer choice, the promotion query should be suppressed. Not only because it would prevail, but because it makes no sense at all to let the user choose and then do something else.

The mechanism the Diagram uses for this is to call WeirdPromotion() with the promo parameter set to 1021 (which is not a valid piece type), to inquire whether there is promotion choice. When this call returns 1001 the query will be suppressed, when it returns 1000 a query is forced, and in any other case it decides itself (based on maxPromote, promoZone and promoChoice).

In the AI it works slightly different; there (for a piece that could normally promote) WeirdPromotion() is called with promo equal to the promoted piece (as per promoOffset), and to suppress the promotion this would have to return 1022. It is the deferral (promo=0) that must be turned into a kamikaze move by returning 251, so that moves that would not naturally promote also get burned.

So when a passive burn is detected, WeirdPromotion() should return 1001 if promo == 1021, 251 if promo == 0 and 1022 otherwise.

 


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Sat, Jan 28, 2023 09:36 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 09:21 PM:

I also experienced this bug with contagious promotions. It seems the shogi promotion prompt is suppressing the WeirdPromotion result.


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Sat, Jan 28, 2023 09:21 PM UTC in reply to Bn Em from 05:40 PM:

Indeed, when WeirdPromotion() is used to pieces that would also promote otherwise it involves more than just returning the desired promotion piece. The Diagram makes a special call to it (recognizable by promo = 1021) to inquire whether there might be promotion choice, and in the passive burning case this should be used to suppress the choice that maxPromote and promoZone would suggest. I don't think the current version does this entirely correct for Shogi promotions, though. I will have a look at it tomorrow.


Bn Em wrote on Sat, Jan 28, 2023 05:40 PM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from 04:17 PM:

Playing about with this diagram I did seem to have run into some strange bugs:

  • Passive burning works correctly, but not when the promotion dialogue turns up. E.g. Rook General g4xg13 from the opening setup survives even though it lands next to the Fire Demon. If I promote it then move it next to the FD again it's burned as expected
  • Under certain conditions (it seems to be contingent on whether it's a piece's first move), promotion seems to become corrupted: it gives me the promotion dialogue, but doesn't promote it regardless of which option I select. Subsequent moves allowing promotion (into/within/out of the promo zone) likewise ask but don't react, and the move seems to permute surrounding pieces in an unpredictable way, often with the same highlighting as for burn victims, though sometimes on squares with pieces still (or newly) on them. I think this is contingent on whether it's a piece's first move:
      1. RGg4xg13=GG works (besides the above bug allowing it to survive)
      1. Pg5–4 Pg12–g11 2. RGg4xg13 similarly works
      1. Pg5–4 Pg12–g11 2. RGg4–g5 Pg11–g10 3. RGg4xg13 triggers the bug

The two bugs together also mean that a piece subject to the second bug can never be passively burned within the promotion zone


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Tue, Jan 3, 2023 06:14 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 04:36 PM:

Well, I don't want to have any discrepancy between what is in Wikipedia and on CVP, so I would then also have to change it in Wikipedia. To not run into an edit battle there, this would have to be done with care.

Understandable. I don't think this would be too hard, provided that the forbidding jump-capturing royalty rule is mentioned in the Disputed Moves section along with a reason for the change (perhaps your comment from our conversation in the Betza notation (extended) page?). But then again, maybe the Wikipedia page is far more sensitive to rule changes than I think it is.

All other rules equal, this would make for a very interesting game.


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