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Vao. moves like bishop but must jump when taking.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Lev Grigoriev wrote on Wed, Mar 27 09:02 AM UTC in reply to Zhennan Su from 01:57 AM:

I probably need.


Zhennan Su wrote on Wed, Mar 27 01:57 AM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from Tue Mar 26 01:09 PM:

Thank you for this information. Did this game had a name and who is the inventor, do you know that?

The English name is Esperanto Chess. I have no info about the inventor's real name. The Pawn is a little bit different, and there's a King-Faceoff rule. If you need a simple introduction, I can send it by E-mail.


Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Tue, Mar 26 01:09 PM UTC in reply to Zhennan Su from 12:03 PM:

Thank you for this information. Did this game had a name and who is the inventor, do you know that?


Zhennan Su wrote on Tue, Mar 26 12:03 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from Mon Mar 25 01:33 PM:

The Sage is FC in Betza's. It was changed to a simple (3,1)-leaper in the final version.


Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Mon, Mar 25 01:33 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from 11:24 AM:

My understanding after reading the other comments of the Chinese page is that the Holy or Sage is moving as FAD in Betza's.

It is a colorbound piece, which is discussed in the comments.


Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Mon, Mar 25 11:24 AM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from 02:03 AM:

The setup is different from Eurasian Chess.

The name of page is: Improved version of Chinese and Western chess (not sure if it is the name of the game also)

From what I understand, the Elephant 象 plays as International Chess Bishop. Pawn, Rook, Knight, King, Queen are identical to Int. Chess. Cannon is like in xiangqi, and Crossbow, 弩, is a diagonal cannon.

The "Holy", 圣, is not a Bishop. Its move is not clear to me, it is said to attack 12 squares.

Then we have: 3rd rank: 10 Pawns 2nd rank: void/N/Crossbow/B/Holy/Holy/B/Crossbow/N/void 1st rank: R/Cannon/void/void/Q/K/void/void/Cannon/R Both sides mirror each other.


Zhennan Su wrote on Mon, Mar 25 02:10 AM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from 02:03 AM:Excellent ★★★★★

Despite this game is something like a prototype of the final game, I'd be glad to do that. I'll send the rules by e-mail later, with some explanation about those comments and some further info.


Zhennan Su wrote on Mon, Mar 25 02:05 AM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from Sun Mar 24 05:58 PM:Excellent ★★★★★

My own use of 矢 goes back to 2001

That reminds me of something. Some of Chinese users use 矢 before 弩 goes in common. 弩 can be expanded more than 矢 (for example, 连弩 神机弩 重弩 弩炮), making 弩 more useful to make variants with promotion. Also 弩 and 炮 are both machine units.


🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Mon, Mar 25 02:03 AM UTC in reply to Zhennan Su from 01:37 AM:

The game described here is similar to my own Eurasian Chess. It has the same pieces plus the Elephants from Xiangqi or maybe Janggi, as I saw multiple references to Korean Elepants in the translated comments. It also uses the same characters as I did for the Bishop and Queen. It would be worthwhile to have a page on it here, but the machine translation I got is not very good. Could you help with that? I could write it up if I know what the rules and pieces are.


Zhennan Su wrote on Mon, Mar 25 01:40 AM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from Sun Mar 24 06:27 PM:

It is interesting to note that a piece named 弩 (Nu) is reported in qiguo xiangqi (seven-player xiangqi)

That 弩 is a crossbow marksman actually :)


Zhennan Su wrote on Mon, Mar 25 01:37 AM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from Sun Mar 24 05:58 PM:

I went through some forums and found 弩 for Vao more earlier in Dec 2012. Check out this link: https://tieba.baidu.com/p/2029251770 . However, no matter when it began, 弩 for Vao has been widely known now in Chinese community. I can provide more infomation if you need.


Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Sun, Mar 24 06:27 PM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from 05:58 PM:

It is interesting to note that a piece named 弩 (Nu) is reported in qiguo xiangqi (seven-player xiangqi), a variant that would have been reported by Sima Guang in the 11th century!

The move was not that of a modern Vao though.


🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Sun, Mar 24 05:58 PM UTC in reply to Zhennan Su from 02:39 AM:

I am a Chinese video uploader, and have been interested in chess variants for about 10 years. As far as I know, the name 弩 has been used for a translation for vao since 2014

Since that year coincides with the beginning of your interest in Chess variants, I am wondering if this usage actually began in 2014 or if that's simply as far back as you're personally aware. My own use of 矢 goes back to 2001, but I am not Chinese.


Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Sun, Mar 24 06:44 AM UTC in reply to Zhennan Su from 02:39 AM:

@ Zhennan Su: very interesting thank you


Zhennan Su wrote on Sun, Mar 24 02:39 AM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from Wed Feb 21 05:04 PM:

Hi there, this is Z.Su#34 himself :) I am a Chinese video uploader, and have been interested in chess variants for about 10 years. As far as I know, the name 弩 has been used for a translation for vao since 2014 , however it is derived from 弩车(Ballista), not crossbow, because both 炮 and 弩 are types of ranged siege machine. This is widely accepted in Chinese forums. If you need further infomation, I will be pleased to help.


🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, Feb 21 05:04 PM UTC in reply to HaruN Y from 02:51 AM:

Okay, it looks like it was two relevant comments from Z.Su#34>_<. This person might be Chinese given that the video he posted was on a Chinese website. From the context, it seems that gbtami, whom HG identified as the programmer of PyChess, suggested and for the diagonal cannon. He first corrected him by saying that "we" call it , though he didn't say who "we" was or how long this usage had been going on. In the next comment, he made the suggestion of using both (crossbow) and (bow) together in the same pattern as and . While considering the bow and crossbow characters years ago, I settled on , which means arrow or vow, as arrow has a similar meaning to bow or crossbow, and vow sounds like vao. If we wanted a more complex character for the side that uses them, , meaning marquis, or , meaning an arrow with a cord attached for shooting birds, might do.


Lev Grigoriev wrote on Wed, Feb 21 07:50 AM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 06:49 AM:

I think he is Hungarian, the programmer of PyChess.

Yes, check out his profile on GitHub)


H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Feb 21 06:49 AM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from 01:25 AM:

and not knowing anything @gbtami, I do not know whether he is Chinese himself.

I think he is Hungarian, the programmer of PyChess.


Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Wed, Feb 21 06:31 AM UTC in reply to HaruN Y from 02:51 AM:

I remember now Cannon Shogi, then invented by Peter Michaelsen, a bright game historian from Denmark. He made precious contributions on the history of boardgames in the Scandinavian area. We corresponded about Gala, Hnefatafl, Daldos, Sakkhu and other games. A nice person, hello to him if he reads these lines.


HaruN Y wrote on Wed, Feb 21 02:51 AM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from 01:25 AM:

gbtami didn't mention that. gbtami is mentioned by Z.Su#34 >_< (zhennan.su).


🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Wed, Feb 21 01:25 AM UTC in reply to HaruN Y from Tue Feb 20 11:34 PM:

So, Z.Su#34 cites a video of Cannon Shogi being played on Zillions-of-Games. This game was created in 1998 and features a Copper Cannon, which moves like a Vao. This game uses diagrammatic pieces and does not use Chinese characters, though the video is on a Chinese website. Then @gbtami mentions calling the diagonal xiangi cannon 弩, though he doesn't supply any context to indicate who exactly it is who uses this name, and not knowing anything @gbtami, I do not know whether he is Chinese himself. He expresses disapproval of a character that looks something like someone wearing a hat. Z.Su#34 recommends the crossbow character and the bow character. I agree that this is a good choice, and I have also made bow pieces.

In terms of appearance, I do like these better than the arrow character, and using a bow for one side and a crossbow for the other fits in with how some sets use slightly different characters for the pieces on each side. So this is a viable option, though it is a suggestion someone made on Discord and not an established practice among the Chinese. While I do favor the appearance of the bow character, the arrow character also means vow, and that is what led me to favor it.


HaruN Y wrote on Tue, Feb 20 11:34 PM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from 10:43 PM:

🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Tue, Feb 20 10:43 PM UTC in reply to Jean-Louis Cazaux from 10:33 PM:

I found I have a Discord id and password in Edge, but I see the same thing as you and don't know where to go from there. I searched for communities on Chinese Chess and Xiangqi but didn't find any promising leads.


Jean-Louis Cazaux wrote on Tue, Feb 20 10:33 PM UTC in reply to Fergus Duniho from 08:58 PM:

@Fergus: I have an access to Discord. I checked this link but it drives me to an empty place. So I can't help more.


🕸Fergus Duniho wrote on Tue, Feb 20 08:58 PM UTC in reply to NeodymiumPhyte from 08:37 PM:

Apparently, in China, the vao is called "弩", meaning "crossbow".Apparently, in China, the vao is called "弩", meaning "crossbow".

I did once make some crossbow images:

Since I found no precedent of the piece being used in China, I went with the Arrow character, because it also means vow.

I am getting this information from https://discord.com/channels/634298688663191582/894530740820262932/1209401956297351258.

Since I don't use discord, this link is useless to me. Do you have a source that doesn't require me to sign into an account I don't have? Or can you take a screenshot of the information you found?


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