[ Help | Earliest Comments | Latest Comments ][ List All Subjects of Discussion | Create New Subject of Discussion ][ List Latest Comments Only For Pages | Games | Rated Pages | Rated Games | Subjects of Discussion ]Comments/Ratings for a Single Item Later ⇩Reverse Order⇧ Earlier⇩ Earliest⇧ PASGL 312 Chess. Critters steal lunch in the forest, while trying to get close to the campfire and avoid the train. (Cells: 68) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]danielmacduff wrote on 2015-04-20 UTCGood ★★★★Another subvariant would be to add a row on each side and superimpose The Game of the Trees. Every piece can travel on grass, shrubbery, and trees equally (Perhaps a Shrew in the trees can't be squashed, or a Deer can eat grass and shrubbery...). Other than movement, trees would block everything. Just a suggestion. Update (like six hours later): Perhaps This Game is for the Birds could be worked in too... The Ultimate Outdoor Trifecta Chess would be very strange indeed... George Duke wrote on 2010-11-11 UTCSome of the subvariants are different armies, that can be found. Betza rarely strays outside 64 squares, like this one 68 squares. Other examples of that are Betza's Outrigger on 80 and Chess on a Really Big Board of 256. George Duke wrote on 2009-10-21 UTCExcellent ★★★★★Thanks, Peter. This is another great Betza effort and I am going to dissect it this week for follow-up. Train and Terminals and probably Railroads. Who would have guessed. And FOX answers that part of question 6 of the Quiz as well as the other two right answers of Fox I have in mind. (Five of the ten Quiz question still have to be explained and answered every few days.) PASGL 312 then is correct alternate response for railroad/train. AMXRE wrote on 2006-09-26 UTCExcellent ★★★★★I reckon this is ralph betza's best game!i am a fan of ralph betza's themed games.they are interesting and look fun to play.by the way,i hope ralph betza eill publish another game!lunch seems tobe a nice theme!the trin is also aconcept not seen before!bye,i will be busy making a set to play with my family! gnohmon wrote on 2002-07-06 UTCI gave a rule for stalemate even though I was not sure it could happen in pasgl312 chess. You may question my consistency. Repetition is clearly possible, althogh it is difficult, and I thought of it bur chose not to mention it at all. The difference is that for this game there is one clear and simple rule for stalemate. I could write down the rule and be sure that it was correct, even though I could not be sure that the situation it covered was possible. Instead of keeping silence, I chose to write down the one true stalemate rule because I felt that it expressed a truth about the game that would help you understand the game. You could almost add it to rule zero: 'for point-scoring games, stalemate is a non-event.' John Lawson wrote on 2002-07-06 UTCYes, that's a good enough rule. My feeling was that it didn't matter. Even in a dual stalemate position, with just the Train chugging around, if there are pieces near the Campfire, the score will be incrementing, at least until the critters are squished by the Train. Wouldn't achieving a stalemate position be difficult? With multiple occupancy, it is near impossible to blockade lunchvoll critters, and if one player's critters were all lunchlos, he would be in a very bad position anyway, and possibly lost. gnohmon wrote on 2002-07-06 UTCI did not think that repetition would be an issue in pasgl312 chess. If a position is the same except for the Train, it is a different position. Therefore, in order to have a real rapetition. you have to wait for the Train to come to the same place and have all the same pieces in the same place, and have them all just as lunchvoll or lunchlos as they were before. If the relative score is the same you can claim end of game and the higher score wins. Is that a good enough rule? This will not often happen, I think. John Lawson wrote on 2002-07-05 UTCI have searched, and I cannot find any rule regarding repetition. Stalemate results in a pass or multiple passes, but I mean voluntarily repeating a position. What happens, if anything? Does it matter if points are being accumulated? Does the position of the Train count? gnohmon wrote on 2002-07-03 UTCI think that pasgl312 will be very hard to play. At least, my own attempts to play a game against myself have all ended after just a few moves with confused positions where i really didn't understand what was going on or what strategy would be appropriate. In designing this game, I first thought about what critters and features of the real pasgl312 I wanted to have in the game, and then I determined the major characteristics of each piece according to the nature of the real-life critter as best I could; and then for several days I thought about individual interactions one-on-one between the pieces. The result is, as far as I can tell, that no piece is overly dominant. This means that there is a skunk strategy and a woodchuck strategy and a deer strategy and even a chipmunk strategy (because of multiple occupancy, you can advance the shrew from c2 to g6 to h7 to g8, and get a chipmunk; it's very hard to stop! But it takes a few moves, so what is the enemy doing while you do this?) Yes, the Fox strategy is designed into the game. If you can eat all the medium/small critters (oops, actually there aren't any small, are there?) then the large critters lack support. A combined Woodchuck+Fox attack is a nice idea. By design, the Woodchuck aims at awkward squares, and by design you may have trouble implementing this strategy. Because I designed primarily for the theme, there are lots and lots of rules. Because I thought so hard about the one-on-one interactions, every strategy i think of has a counterstrategy. I do not think that I will ever be very good at this game; on the other hand, when i used to play my own games competitively, the games i played poorly were usually more popular than the ones I could win -- people got a kick out of beating the game's inventor, I guess. I think i could play Nemoroth pretty well. I hope to see somebody play pasgl312 well. I will admire and applaud. John Lawson wrote on 2002-07-02 UTCI will be playing PASGL 312 in the near future, and one of the plans I had considered was the Woodchuck and Fox working as a team against the opponents medium-sized critters. The Woodchuck bonks them, causing them to drop their lunch, and then the Fox darts in and devours them. gnohmon wrote on 2002-07-02 UTC'if the Woodchuck chucks wood in a high enough arc to clear the Train' Yes, I think it does. I said it could chuck past obstacles. The Woodchuck's shooting aims at awkward places, but I am finding it to be a very interesting piece in my attempts at playtesting. No wonder I had to post before testing! It would have taken me months and months to playtest because the strategies and tactics are even stranger than Nemoroth's! John Lawson wrote on 2002-07-01 UTCI understand that the Hunter cannot shoot through the Train, and the Deer cannot leap over the Train, but it is unspecified if the Woodchuck chucks wood in a high enough arc to clear the Train. John Lawson wrote on 2002-06-28 UTC'...but some of the emptying moves could go from one Train square to another.' Also, if you unload a Campfire square to a Campfire square on the other track, the train will be back to that square in 10 moves or so. John Lawson wrote on 2002-06-28 UTC'...I guess you can score enough in one turn to win; with the Train coming by, you have 10 moves to load up a square and ten moves to empty it; but some of the emptying moves could go from one Train square to another.' If you are accumulating points fast enough, it may not be necessary to make any attempt to unload the Campfire square if you reach the 30 point advantage before the Train actually squishes your critters. 'Because of multiple occupancy, it's easy to promote a Shrew. However, it takes quite a few turns.' And all that time, your opponent is gathering his critters around the Campfire. (Do critters gathered around the Campfire sing songs and make s'mores?) '...this is baffling to try to play.' This is an alarming admission. I confess that, even after actually playing Nemoroth and Captain Spalding Chess, I am having trouble getting my mind around PASGL 312, and now the inventor is baffled, too. Maybe I'm not as dense as I feared. gnohmon wrote on 2002-06-28 UTCSo many comments to answer! I think of the abbreviation as pronounced p, a, s, g, l. The roadside signs sometimes say 'sgl 312', and the 'pa' is implicit because you're obviously in Pennsylvania. Yes, scoring is cumulative per turn. I must confess that I didn't consider how many points one could score per turn. If the opponent does not shoot you or steal your lunch, I guess you can score enough in one turn to win; with the Train coming by, you have 10 moves to load up a square and ten moves to empty it; but some of the emptying moves could go from one Train square to another. Remember that pieces can become useless without being removed from the board. If you skunk a bunch of enemy pieces and occupy their home squares with Chipmunks it's a big advantage. Because of multiple occupancy, it's easy to promote a Shrew. However, it takes quite a few turns. If a piece is on its home square and you steal its lunch, what happens? (a) nothing much; it gets a new lunch just by being there; (b) it has to leave home and re-enter the square. This is unspecified, a hole in the rules. I'll specify after some more playtesting. It's serendipitous that you can try to scroe some points fast with 1. Df1-d4, but then Wg8->d4 bonk! and the Deer is lunchlos! 1. Df1xc7 merely helps the enemy development. Ths Skunk has such great mobility, what about 1. Sb1-b2 intending Sb2-b7 trying to get in the way and slow down enemies? Maybe the Fox is the key to the game? No? Hmmm, this is baffling to try to play. Jianying Ji wrote on 2002-06-27 UTCWhat about pas--gal three twelve John Lawson wrote on 2002-06-27 UTCI've been meaning to ask how 'PASGL 312' is spoken. Most straight-forward would be 'pee-ay-ess-gee-ell-three-twelve'. I've personally been referring to it as 'Pennsylvania-State-Game-Lands-three-hundred-twelve Chess', but this might be considered hyper-correct. Other alternatives are also possible; which is most appropriate? John Lawson wrote on 2002-06-27 UTCI think Joseph is right. It looks like I missed exactly how points were accumulated. I was thinking they would be assessed once, at the end of the game, but assessing them at the end of each ply makes more sense. Then missing Hunters might not be a disaster, because if you outplayed your opponent, your score would eventually exceed his by 30 points anyway. It would probably be undesirable to have two royal pieces. This is another one of those games, like Nemoroth and Captain Spalding Chess, where you need to spend days studying the rules to have a chance. I love this stuff. Joseph DiMuro wrote on 2002-06-27 UTCExcellent ★★★★★If I'm interpreting the rules correctly, critters earn points EVERY TURN that they start next to the campfire. If a bear stays next to the campfire 6 turns in a row, that's 30 points. As for the possibility of an endless game, it looks like the only way it can happen is if both hunters are lost, as you said. How about we say that a player that loses a hunter loses the game? That would close the loophole without affecting gameplay much (the chances of losing a hunter are extremely slim). John Lawson wrote on 2002-06-27 UTCExcellent ★★★★★I've been looking at the point scheme. The total number of points a player can have for critters next to the campfire is 24 plus 1 for each Shrew that can be promoted to Chipmunk, or 32. If you assume that promoting Shrews is difficult: Then the likelihood of exceeding your opponent's point count by 30 is close to zero. And the likelihood of losing the game even though the opponent's Bear is eliminated for 20 points is close to zero. Furthermore, to achieve the maximum score (32) for Campfire propinquity, there would have to be 16 critters adjacent to the Campfire. Since the train passes through each Campfire square 2 of every 20 turns, orchestrating the 'campout' without some critter getting sqooshed would be near impossible. Another interesting effect is that if each side loses its Hunter (foolishly, since the only way I can see for that to happen is for them both to be squished by the Train), the game can never end, except draw by agreement. Perhaps in this case we need something like a 50-move rule, but instead of a draw, the winner is declared on points. I can see the possibility of an urban variant of PASGL 312 called NYCTA IRT, where commuters jostle to be near the door to get on or off a subway train without being pushed onto the tracks or having their pockets picked. BTW, I noticed no one has actually rated this. I give it excellent for concept. Play is still moot. gnohmon wrote on 2002-06-26 UTCYes, lunchvoll and lunchlos; and I'd rather say lunchlos than lunchless in order to avoid possible confusion: creatures that never carry Lunch are lunchless, but they are not lunchlos. Peter Aronson wrote on 2002-06-26 UTCI've merged the additional material at the end, and added the notation additions. John Lawson wrote on 2002-06-26 UTCLet me see if I understand 'Lunch' correctly: If a critter loses its lunch, that lunch disappears from the game; it is not lying around to be picked up by some other critter. If a critter drops its lunch, that lunch disappears from the game; it is not lying around to be picked up by some other critter. If a critter steals another critter's lunch, the stealing critter must, of course, already have a lunch. The result is that the stealee has no lunch and the stealer has lunch, not two lunches. Since lunches are not 'conserved' as objects, then they may be considered more as states, say 'lunchvoll' and 'lunchlos'. Did I get it? gnohmon wrote on 2002-06-26 UTC'If a Deer is at a3 and wants to jump to b5, when is it blocked by the train? Is it when the train is in a4, or in b4, or in either a4 or b4, or in both a4 and b4?' Hey! People are already saying too many rules! Hush! Unless otherwise specified, if a Knight cannnot jump it is considered to move first Rookwise then diagonally, so that a blockable Knight move from a3 to b5 is blocked when a4 is occupied; as per the 'Rule Zero' page -- which I haven't submitted to the editors because I've been so 'busy' thinking about PASGL312 Chess! (And so I can't blame you for asking, right?) In this game, the Train is capitalized, in honor of Jay Gould, who is the evil capitalist robber baron whose name is in Gouldsboro. If you are not familiar with the history of Jay Gould and Jim Fisk and the Erie Lackawanna RR, buy or borrow a book. It's a wonderful story. Yes, Gouldsboro is named after *that* Jay Gould, and yes, the Train in PASGL312 Chess is in real life the Erie Lackawanna RR! (I paused for a few minutes and decided that it really needs a few more exclamation points.) !!!! Peter Hatch wrote on 2002-06-26 UTCIf a Deer is at a3 and wants to jump to b5, when is it blocked by the train? Is it when the train is in a4, or in b4, or in either a4 or b4, or in both a4 and b4? 25 comments displayedLater ⇩Reverse Order⇧ Earlier⇩ Earliest⇧Permalink to the exact comments currently displayed.