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Tenjiku Shogi. Fire Demons burn surrounding enemies, Generals capture jumping many pieces. (16x16, Cells: 256) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
🔔Notification on Wed, Sep 18 06:38 PM UTC:

The author, H. G. Muller, has updated this page.


François Houdebert wrote on Sun, Jun 16 05:16 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 11:58 AM:

I've taken some of the comments into account while maintaining consistency with the previous graphs, in the hope that this will be enough to help one to get started quickly on the game : tenjiku-rules


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Sun, Jun 16 11:58 AM UTC in reply to François Houdebert from 10:23 AM:

I would do it more like this:

The lower left would be for the primary move diagram, the upper right for the additional explanation of the rifle and hit & run capture. I made the arrows yellow rather than white for better contrast with white pieces. Capture-only moves would be colored red, move-only green. For a hopper there would be no cross on the Pawn, and it would be half white, half black.


François Houdebert wrote on Sun, Jun 16 10:23 AM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 09:24 AM:

I made the most immediate corrections.
As for the rest, I'm not sure I understood how to represent the 2nd diagram.

Do you have time to propose a scheme that suits you?


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Sun, Jun 16 09:24 AM UTC in reply to François Houdebert from 08:52 AM:

The moves from the black Pawn to the empty squares should not be back-and-forth arrows. I consider it a bit objectionable that the forward-right slide is indicated in the presence of a black Pawn.

I must admit that I don't like this style of move diagram very much anyway. Indicating a sliding move by an arrow as well as a marker symbol in the final square is confusing. I suppose the triangles are meant to indicate that there could be a locust victim there, but the diagonal arrows now have different symbols at their point and tail, and it is not intuitively clear which one applies to them. If you want to indicate slides by an arrow, I would prefer them to be indicated by only that arrow, so that one can be sure all other symbols on or near it refer to other moves. E.g. use colors for indicating move/capture/both, and the shape of the symbol (dot, leap-arrow) for indicating motion type. It might be better to equip the sliding arrow with arrow heads on every square that is a valid destination, so you can also indicate riding.

I would indicate squares where there could be locust victims or mounts by the dashed outline of a Pawn behind all the move markers. And then use a dashed arrow going over those to possible final destinations. (Dashed, because it then doesn't entirely cover possible slides that follow the same path if the square is empty.) The color of the dashed Pawn outline could indicate whether this is a mount or a locust victim. I still think it would be clearer to just indicate the location of possible 'move activation' in a main diagram by a dashed outline piece, and then show the move when something would be there in a separate diagram (where the piece would be solidly drawn, posisbly half white and half black to indicate both colors would do).

And why do the arrows end after 3 steps? This suggests a range limitation of 3 to me.


François Houdebert wrote on Sun, Jun 16 08:52 AM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 08:34 AM:

Would a scheme like this be more interesting?
We can also remove the blue arrows, the "show moves" option may be enough to understand these moves with a little explanation in the rules.


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Sun, Jun 16 08:34 AM UTC in reply to François Houdebert from 08:30 AM:

But they indicate rifle captures instead.


François Houdebert wrote on Sun, Jun 16 08:30 AM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 05:38 AM:

The blue arrows are an attempt to represent the hit-and-run captures


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Sun, Jun 16 05:38 AM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from Sat Jun 15 08:08 PM:

The hit-and-run captures are not indicated in this move diagram. Note there is no need to squeeze all possible moves in a single diagram, in a rules explanation. For strongly overlapping moves doing so would result in indecipherable spaghetti. Much better to use as many diagrams as is needed to make each of those clear and easy to understand.

In the Interactive Diagram the move diagrams initially only indicates plain (non-)captures, plus potential hopper mounts and locust victims. The destinations of the latter only appear when you materialize an opponent piece on them by hovering/touching. I think that in the case of static diagrams it would be best to provide a separate diagram for cases where presence of a piece is needed to activate a move to a square elsewhere, and only indicate the squares where this can happen by a special marker symbol in the primary diagram. Or even with a background color, so they can combine with plain moves to the same square.

Of course we could consider including interactive move diagrams in Jocly rule descriptions, similar to those that can be summoned in the Interactive Diagram.


François Houdebert wrote on Sat, Jun 15 09:04 PM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from 08:08 PM:

Correct. I keep the image


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Sat, Jun 15 08:08 PM UTC in reply to François Houdebert from 04:47 PM:

The Free Eagle graph, at least for the move described on this page, which you use in your Rules document, should look like this:


François Houdebert wrote on Sat, Jun 15 04:47 PM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from 04:24 PM:

Do you like the graph better in that version ?


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Sat, Jun 15 04:24 PM UTC in reply to François Houdebert from 06:23 AM:

The Fire Demon graph looks good. It doesn't match the move described on this page, but this is acceptable due to the lacunae in the historical documents.

For the Free Eagle graph, it seems you just copied the Lion Hawk's diagram and removed some Lion move arrows. To clarify, the Free Eagle's "diagonal moves of the Lion" means it can move as a Ferz (one square diagonally) up to twice per turn, but otherwise has all the Lion move options that this implies. Oh, and don't forget the orthogonal and diagonal slides, which are always present for the Free Eagle.

If you need an easy reference for this move you can click on the Free Eagle in the Interactive Diagram.

rule to document the set view of tenjiku in jocly

Link quote


François Houdebert wrote on Sat, Jun 15 06:23 AM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from 01:31 AM:

Indeed, I made the correction (same link).

Thanks


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Sat, Jun 15 01:31 AM UTC in reply to François Houdebert from Fri Jun 14 08:49 PM:

The Fire Demon was always depicted with diagonal slides, which your graph lacks.

Also, it seems you missed the graph for the Free Eagle. The preset on CVP uses the same move described in this page.


François Houdebert wrote on Fri, Jun 14 08:49 PM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from 07:49 PM:

I made a quick modification for Vice General graph and the jumping restriction (same link).

I'm not sure I understood the remark about the fire demon : the graph reflects the movement chosen in the implementation and the icon corresponds to the latest sprites to my knowledge (included in the zip). Concerning the choice of movement, I also noticed that there were several versions.

We'd probably have to make a choice at the level of chessvariant for reasons of consistency. Personally, I can't say which one is best for the game.

 


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Fri, Jun 14 07:49 PM UTC in reply to François Houdebert from Wed Jun 12 05:44 AM:

This looks good for the most part. A couple things I would like to point out though:

Your Fire Demon graph does not match any of the descriptions Tenjiku players use.

Your Vice General graph does not show the range-jumping properties like the other jumping General graphs do, so people might assume it is a normal slider.

The rules forget to mention the restriction against jumping over a King or Prince.


François Houdebert wrote on Wed, Jun 12 05:44 AM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from Tue Jun 11 11:37 PM:
I made a little rule to document the set view of tenjiku in jocly with graphs of the moves.
This can help you get started on tenjiku when you know chu shogi.
If you are interested, you can use it.

A. M. DeWitt wrote on Tue, Jun 11 11:37 PM UTC in reply to François Houdebert from Sun Jun 9 06:26 PM:

Well, this game has the problem of having lacunae in the historical sources. The current Tenjiku Jocly preset uses the ruleset from Richard's PbEM server.


François Houdebert wrote on Sun, Jun 9 06:26 PM UTC:

The move of the fire demon is different between jocly and Interactive diagram.

It seems to me that the vertical movement was a deliberate choice, even if it's different on some sites (wikipedia). I don't know if the consensus has changed, but it would be nice to harmonize the two implementations.


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Tue, Jun 4 08:43 PM UTC:

Since this page and the corresponding preset was changed to reflect the current consensus, I will update Nutty Shogi's page and preset to match, since it is based on Tenjiku Shogi.


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Mon, Jun 3 06:21 PM UTC in reply to H. G. Muller from 05:51 PM:

Alright then. I will revise this page and the GC preset to reflect this.


📝H. G. Muller wrote on Mon, Jun 3 05:51 PM UTC in reply to A. M. DeWitt from 05:38 PM:

I am not so sure this should not happen. I am in fact pretty sure the historic rules were that burning would occur in this case. Any other rule open a can of worms in terms of inconsistencies, and additional rules needed to resolve those..


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Mon, Jun 3 05:38 PM UTC:

Interactive Diagram successfully inserted. However, Water Buffalos that promote to Fire Demon immediately burn surrounding enemies, which should not happen. Is there a way I can fix this without needing to modify the source code itself?


A. M. DeWitt wrote on Mon, Jun 3 01:53 PM UTC:

The Wikipedia page on this game was changed to reflect your remarks on the range-jumping rankings to allow jump-capture of royalty. So I will do the same here. The GC preset already reflects this.

I will also make an interactive diagram with your pieces and put it on the page, and fix some typos I found.

[Edit]: Update of article successful. Working on the Interactive Diagram.


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