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This item is a game information page
It belongs to categories: Orthodox chess, 
It was last modified on: 2006-07-31
 By Gary K. Gifford. Shatranjian Shogi. Shatranj with extra pieces from days gone by and with Shogi drops. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Greg Strong wrote on 2020-07-18 UTC

This is an interesting looking game I don't remember seeing before.

Too bad there is no automated preset for it yet. I might look into making one but I'd need to read up on how drops work first.


Gary Gifford wrote on 2007-03-11 UTC
As indicated in David's comment... yes, the Shogi drops are a critical component of this game. David, thanks for the assessment.

David Paulowich wrote on 2007-03-11 UTC

Examining the WHITE pieces:

2xFerz travel the 40 light-colored squares

2xWar Machine travel the 16 dark-colored squares on ranks 2, 4, 6, 8

2xElephant travel 12 dark-colored squares on ranks 1, 3, 5, 7, 9

and none of these six pieces can travel the 13 remaining dark-colored squares on ranks 1, 3, 5, 7, 9. Identical colorbound pieces can defend each other, as in Chinese Chess. Without Shogi drops to 'mix things up', this game would run the risk of fragmenting into a series of separate battles. In my Shatranj Kamil variants on 64 squares and 100 squares, these six colorbound pieces are reduced to three: a Ferz and two Elephants that use a weaker version of the Alibaba move.


Gary Gifford wrote on 2006-08-03 UTC
Andy - I do not mind crediting you as one of two driving forces behind my creation of the Dragon variant. I was satisfied with the original - but you made valid points as did Daniel and so -- the way my brain works it kept bugging me until the Dragon variation was made. So my main point for giving credit is simply that if not for your logically stated comments (which ran counter to my ideas) there would not be a Shatranjian Dragon Shogi. Thanks again.

Gary Gifford wrote on 2006-08-03 UTC
Christine- Thanks for the comment. If only I had read it before my game began. Yes, Pawn drops are deadly and I am being punished for non-challant play inwhich I only realized too late, the wisdom of your words. Well, I think I knew already, the reality of what you said, but for some reason I overlooked the danger in my game with Jeremy. Anyway, I'll try to put up a fight. I think that the Dragon variaton will be even more dangerous to the one who permits tactical pawn drops.

Christine Bagley-Jones wrote on 2006-08-03 UTCExcellent ★★★★★
Well i think this looks great, it has my fav pieces. With promotion zone
last 3 ranks and game played with drops, play should be fast paced. It has
a nice shatranj feel to it.
Even though i most likely prefer promoted pieces reverting back to pawns,
i think it is interesting and fun the way it plays in this game. For sure,
when promoting, you would have to consider things differently.
Gary, i was going to say, defence will be important, because pro zone is 3
ranks, pawn drops will be deadly, and wazir and fers could often be hard
pressed to defend, and just before i looked at your game going at the
moment on game courier :)

Andy wrote on 2006-08-03 UTC
Gary, no need to credit me in any way. I simple suggested you perhaps apply rule that exists in other games like shogi and crazyhouse. Your choice which rules to use, and your creation 100 percent.

Gary Gifford wrote on 2006-08-02 UTC
Sam - Thanks for commenting, but you certainly don't have to wait for a Zillions zrf. CV has quite a few members and you could actually play a game against one of them. Or play the Dragon variant if you prefer Andy's 'captured promoted pawn returns to pawn' aspect.

Sam Trenholme wrote on 2006-08-02 UTC
Looks good.  I can't comment on it further until I see a Zillions
implementation and can playtest it a little, of course. 

Maybe I'll make a Zillions preset one of these days...

Gary Gifford wrote on 2006-08-02 UTC
Charles Gilman wrote in part, '... the rule of promoting Pawns to Ferzes,
and promoting other pieces by ADDING the Ferz move. This preserves Shogi
Rook promotion, and  ... Applying this to the array here [Shatranjian
Shogi] could still be done but would require one piece type represented by
stacks of two spare pieces - three sets for two games, perhaps.'

Reply: Thanks for the informative comment.  I had thought of promoting all
non-King pieces.  But with factors such as Shogi drops (to make up for slow
short range Ferz and Wazir), Western Pawns, and 3 types of leapers
(Knights, Elephants, and War Machines) it seemed to me that pawn-exclusive
promotion was more than sufficient.  My base starting point was Shatranj,
and so this new game, as is, is certainly far more dynamic than the basis
for it... yes, it is slightly restrained, but  I believe logically so.   I
also heavily weighed Andy's pawn reverting comments and Daniel's Bishop
concept... and thus came up with the Shatranjian Dragon Shogi which
changes the game quite a bit.  Afterwards I received a note from Christine
in support of Andy's promtions/reverting preference. 

Anyway, I believe these two Shatranjian variants will work well.  I hope
those who like captured promoted pieces 'to lose their promotions' will
be satisfied with the Dragon variant, and that those who like promotions
to remain in effect will be happy with the original Shatranjian Shogi. 
P.S. Andy: if you want your last name included in the credits of
inspiration/motivation for the Dragon variant, just send me an e-mail.  If
it was not for your earlier comments I'd not have made the Dragon version.
   Best regards to all - gkg

Andy wrote on 2006-08-02 UTC
If Charles Gilman wants to push his own games he should do elsewhere. Does inventor of Shatranjian Shogi want other inventors pushing their own games in his thread?

Charles Gilman wrote on 2006-08-02 UTCGood ★★★★

As the main advocate of returning unpromoted with Occidental sets I suppose I ought to mention how I have approached this for this range of pieces. In my latest update to Bishogi , update submitted but yet to be posted) I added Filgi, which is 'to Bishogi what Shatranji is to Chessgi.' This follows the rule of promoting Pawns to Ferzes, and promoting other pieces by ADDING the Ferz move. This preserves Shogi Rook promotion, and promotes 2-step leapers to be only as bound as the Ferz itself. As everything has only one promotion option it can be played with Shogi pieces. Applying this to the array here could still be done but would require one piece type represented by stacks of two spare pieces - three sets for two games, perhaps.

As for adding a Bishop - well that's getting into the realms of Shoxiang.


Daniel Roth wrote on 2006-08-01 UTCGood ★★★★
Nice game which offset the weakness of the old pieces quite well.
But I see the lack of a long range diagonal moving piece like a bishop.
What's about adding pawn promotion to bishop also?

Andy wrote on 2006-08-01 UTC

Okay, Gary, good discussion and good chess variant. Perhaps some will try one way and others will try the other and we'll hear players conclusions.


Gary Gifford wrote on 2006-07-31 UTC

Andy, thank you for stating your good reasons as to why you prefer the rule where promoted pawns revert back to pawns when captured. {Which is not the rule I used}.

I can appreciate your preference and the reasons for it. I like that aspect myself when playing Shogi. But I very much disliked it for a Chess/Shogi variant I played. With Shogi the turning tiles are always simple to grasp, i.e., it is always easy for me to instantly see and be constantly aware of the dual nature of a promoted piece. And not just promoted pawns, but the other promoted pieces too. But with Chess-like pieces I tend to mentally solidify promoted pieces... but perhaps that mind trick is rare. Any way, what I like for promoted pawns in Shogi I truly dislike for the Chess/Shogi combo. But that is me... I may be heavily out-numbered in this feeling...

As it is now, I believe the game encourages very thoughtful promotions. To take the counter side of your argument, one could say for the pawn-revert concept, 'Well, I'll just promote this pawn to a rook. Who cares if it is captured? He will only get a pawn.' But the other way, one must care... and care very deeply. Yes, it will be a bit harder to attack. But your opponent has the same burden.

There is of course, nothing to stop players from playing the game as you describe, in which promoted pawns revert back to pawns when captured.

On a different note, but related to your first comment about weak pieces: the main idea of drops in this game is to off-set the limitations of the weaker pieces, Ferz, Wazir, to some extent the Elephant and War Machine.

Thank you again for your excellent comment and insights.

Best regards,

Gary


Andy wrote on 2006-07-31 UTC
Okay, promoted pawns stay promoted. But this discourages sacrifice attacks, too. In shogi, promoted pawn is dangerous because can attack aggressively, since if lost opponent only gets a pawn back in hand. Players will be less likely to make aggressive sacrifice with rook (promoted pawn) if opponent takes and gets rook in hand than if opponent takes and only gets back pawn in hand. Players will also be discouraged from promoting pawn if exchange is involved. I prefer rule where promoted pawn reverts to pawn when captured.

Gary Gifford wrote on 2006-07-31 UTC
Andy: Thanks for the comment and the very important question. Answer: Promoted pawns retain their promoted status when captured (unlike in Shogi). I will add this statement to the rules. Thank you.

Andy wrote on 2006-07-31 UTCGood ★★★★
A very logical set of pieces, aesthetically satisfying. Many weak pieces, 8 pieces weaker than shogi generals, which leaves small question in my mind. So the game will develop slowly, but drops probably make up for that. Promoted pawns stay promoted when captured or turn back into pawns?

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