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Mark Bates wrote on Wed, Feb 27, 2013 10:37 PM UTC:
Since the content for this game has been removed, and since I have created
a different variant with the same name, is there a way to remove the game,
so I can submit under the same name?

Thanks,

Mark Bates
Creator, Sovereign Chess
[email protected]

EDIT: The old game has been removed, and the associated comments moved
here.  --Ben Reiniger

H. G. Muller wrote on Mon, Jan 12, 2009 11:27 PM UTC:
K+D should indeed be pretty close to a Rook, perhaps slightly below it. You could weaken it further by making it a non-jumping piece.

Simon Jepps wrote on Mon, Jan 12, 2009 04:37 PM UTC:
Thanks Joe, I'll look into that. Meanwhile the new combined movement of Dababba and King seems to satisfy my original thesis.

Joe Joyce wrote on Thu, Jan 8, 2009 04:29 AM UTC:
Simon, it's relatively easy to make a basic preset. Would you be interested in making one for Sovereign Chess? Here is a very simple guide, and I can give you any assistance you need to set up a non-rules-checking preset. 

 http://chessvariants.wikidot.com/preset-primer   EDIT

Joe

H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 10:58 PM UTC:
Well, I didn't say that it was wrong to have the K + N + lame D piece in there: even if it is worth slightly over a Queen, there is nothing against having 3 Queen-class pieces on a 10x10 board. (Capablanca has 3 Queen-class pieces on 10x8, and that is an OK variant...) Although having a piece capable of solo checkmating might not be good for a variant. (OTOH, Knightmate has that too, and does not really suffer from it.)

K+N should be 7.5-8, almost balancing a Rook + Knight in an end-game with otherwise only King and Pawns. At least it is on 8x8. On 10x10 it might lose some value, but so would the Knight, so it might still be a fair match for a Rook and a Knight.

Simon Jepps wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 10:56 PM UTC:
I did John, and the Check mate he mentioned wasn't difficult. I seemed to have overlooked its abilities... it was far more powerful than I wanted... so like I said in my last post, I have edited its movement accordingly and now all is okay. All I wanted was a piece of approximately 4 points in value, and that incorporated a Knight move. My Dad and I just sat down and went through it... luckily for me, it's hard to get him interested... but all is written in stone now. Enjoy!

John Smith wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 10:42 PM UTC:
I agree with Mr. Muller. The Ganesha is almost certainly worth at least a Queen. Why don't you test it yourself, replacing one side's Ganeshas with Rooks?

Simon Jepps wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 10:32 PM UTC:
You're right, that's still far too powerful. So I've made it just Knight and King, with a 3 square first move. That makes all issues I wanted covered and its power remains respective of the balance. Case closed.

H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 07:58 PM UTC:
I think you still don't get it. I am not talking about a single position, but about 228 million different ones. Namely all possible positions with this material.

Point is that if you hav King + Rook + Knight, and I have King + Ganesha, I will almost certainly beat you, unless it happened to be your move and my Ganesha happened to be hanging,or it is my move and you happened to have a fork or skewer on my King + Ganesha. In other words, if the Ganesha is trivially lost tactically, so that this is not really a K+G vs K+R+N ending at all.

But in a tactically quiet position, the Ganesha almost always wins. That is not bad for a single piece, to defeat Rook + Knight with overwhelming superiority. A Queen cannot do that, for example.

Simon Jepps wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 07:01 PM UTC:
Firstly that is a positional variable... each position effects each piece differently - It might be worth more in certain positions, but you can't base its absolute value on merely one position. Secondly I think you are over analysing things.

H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 06:44 PM UTC:
Opening? I am talking about K+G vs K+R+N here. With onlyy 5 pieces on the board, I hardly would call that an opening...

Simon Jepps wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 06:34 PM UTC:
I disagree, I've studied several Sovereign Chess openings and any direct attack on the Elephant can be defended.

I challenge you to post an opening sequence where the case is otherwise.

H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 06:22 PM UTC:
How about this then:

K+G vs K+R+N on 8x8 is 95% won with white (= the side with G) to move. With black to move still 35% of all positions is won. (There are many positions where black can capture your G or K on the first move, after which you cannot win anymore. K+R+N on the average cover 6.6+5.25+14 ~ 25 squares or 35% of the board, and either your K or G might be in their line of fire, explaining the bulk of the other 65% positions.)

I cannot exclude there are some fortress draws.

Do you think 5 is a good value for a piece that almost always slaughters a Rook + Knight in the end-game?

Simon Jepps wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 05:51 PM UTC:
Hmmm, I see where you are coming from now. It could be worth more then but I'm still reluctant to give it more than 5.

It is effectively Knight and Pawn, plus King like movement so...

N+P = 4
4 points + a little extra movement (K?) will equal 4.75 - 5.0.

So 5 points plus and minus some variables which effectively cancel each other out... I'd go with 5.

H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 05:40 PM UTC:
lame D = D that cannot jump.

K+G vs K+R is a generally-won end-game on 8x8. I am pretty sure it is the same on 10x10, and that it does not matter much if Pawns are present. (Provided, of course, they are not very close to promotion).

The reason is that Ganesha can checkmate (forcing it, so not just help mates like Archbishop) without the aid of its King on any size board (or in fact on a quarter-infinite board). It might take some time before it gets close enough to the opponent King to give the first check, but once it does, you are toast...

And a Rook can not give perpetuals like a Queen can: when it tries you approach until you attack it diagonally, and then it has to move without checking, and the Ganesha gets one step closer to the opponent King. (Well, two steps, more likely! ;-) )

Simon Jepps wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 05:02 PM UTC:
Well it kind of has the value of 5, but it's value is severely weakened in the endgame and on a 10 x 10 board. A Bishop in fact could prove to be more useful than an Elephant in the Endgame, so it's kind of worth 4.5, but I wouldn't go so far as to say 5.

It doesn't have the Dababba movement... it can only jump when it moves exactly like a Knight does.

Maybe 5 would be a more accurate value, but I wouldn't say anything more as the Rook and Bishop could out number it in the Endgame.

H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 04:56 PM UTC:
So if I understand it correctly, this Ganesha moves as K + N + lame Dababba. That makes me severly doubt the value you put on it (4). The K+N piece alone (on 8x8) is super-strong, about 8 (when Q=9.5). Perhaps it loses a little strength on 10x10, but this should be more than compensated by adding the lame-D moves.

Simon Jepps wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 04:40 PM UTC:
It means the common way it is interpreted, such as 2 squares along and then one to the side (or vice versa), like as you say an L shape. If however you took the quicker route of say 1 diagonal and then 1 along it could then move 1 square diagonally also. I have included some diagrams to make this more clear.

H. G. Muller wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 04:17 PM UTC:
I have no idea what 'any squares a Knight usually passes through' means. Being a leaper, a Knight does not pass through any square, but teleports directly to its final destination.

If you have a path in mind through which a Knight reaches its desitination, you should specify the path, as this is not standard. Does a Knight move in an L shape, and if so, does the long leg or short leg of the L come first? Or does it move like the Mao or Moa? Or is it a multipath Moo? Or does it move 3 forward and then back diagonally?

Also the phrase 'can only jump if it moves like a Knight'  is ambiguous. Does it mean the piece is a hopper?

Simon Jepps wrote on Wed, Jan 7, 2009 03:57 PM UTC:
If anyone has the equipment:

i)10 x 10 board
ii)Two elephants or miscellaneous pieces which could be used as Elephants
iii) Two additional pawns per side

And would like to play me via correspondence, it would be greatly appreciated.

Simon Jepps wrote on Mon, Jan 5, 2009 04:24 PM UTC:
In case anyone was wondering, this Elephant piece's movement has been decided and the game article is now complete.

John Smith wrote on Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:07 PM UTC:
The US. I don't think it would be worth your time!

Simon Jepps wrote on Sun, Jan 4, 2009 10:05 PM UTC:
I think I'll leave it be.

John, where are you from? Maybe we could meet up and discuss it. Would be nice to meet some real chess variant enthusiasts.

John Smith wrote on Sun, Jan 4, 2009 09:56 PM UTC:
How about it moves as a Camel, and it assumes the move of its last captive, losing its previous move? It has a unique initial move, so in that lies some power, but it is lost in the endgame if it does not capture before then. Or perhaps it always has an additional Camel move.

Simon Jepps wrote on Sun, Jan 4, 2009 09:32 PM UTC:
I'm open to ideas, but how would it move to begin with... otherwise wouldn't it be just sat there doing nothing? And then again, I don't want a piece more powerful than a Queen.

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