Check out Symmetric Chess, our featured variant for March, 2024.


[ Help | Earliest Comments | Latest Comments ]
[ List All Subjects of Discussion | Create New Subject of Discussion ]
[ List Latest Comments Only For Pages | Games | Rated Pages | Rated Games | Subjects of Discussion ]

Comments/Ratings for a Single Item

LatestLater Reverse Order Earlier
Odin's Rune Chess. A game inspired by Carl Jung's concept of synchronicity, runes, and Nordic Mythology. (10x10, Cells: 100) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Greg Strong wrote on Sun, Jun 19, 2005 07:06 PM UTC:
Ah, yes... Ok, all makes sense now.

💡📝Gary Gifford wrote on Sun, Jun 19, 2005 06:58 PM UTC:
This is to answer Greg Strong's good questions.  

Q1 ... a King cannot do a 'move/relocate' function with the other
King.'  Why is this?  If King #1 is adjacent to a Valkyrie, can it not
make a move/relocate move like a Valkyrie?  And if the other King is
in-line, why can it not move/relocate that King?
A1: The answer is that these would result in meaningless or 'null'
moves.  For example.

Imagine this set up on a certain file: Where '-' = space and
1 = King 1 and 2 = King 2 and V = Valkyrie.  

- - - - 2 - - - 1 V    Here, if a King (next to a Valkyrie) could relocate
the other, we could get:

- - - - 1 - - - 2 V    It is as if no move was made.  Or, we could get

- - - - 1 - 2 - - V    But this is positionally the same as 

- - - - 2 - 1 - - V   Inwhich we just moved King #1.

Note that Mike Nelson deserves the credit for initially realizing the
redundancy and null factors.  He discovered this while working on the
Odin's Rune Chess Zillions .zrf.  I agreed 100% with his conclusions and
his zrf rule implementations.


Q2:  I assume that the Forest Ox cannot use it's optional riffle capture
to capture a friendly piece.  Correct?
A2: Yes.  The Forest Ox only takes down the enemy, even when using its
horns for the optional adjacent square capture factor.

Note the the Odin's Runes Chess ZRF plays correctly by the rules so one
can get a good feel for the game using that (if he or she has a registered
copy of Zillions).

Thanks for commenting.

Greg Strong wrote on Sun, Jun 19, 2005 06:18 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
An excellent and very enjoyable game!

A couple of questions, though.  Addendum item #2; I thought I understood
what was being said here, until the sentence 'Because of this rule, of
course, a King cannot do a 'move/relocate' function with the other
King.'  Why is this?  If King #1 is adjacent to a Valkyrie, can it not
make a move/relocate move like a Valkyrie?  And if the other King is
in-line, why can it not move/relocate that King?

Also, I assume that the Forest Ox cannot use it's optional riffle capture
to capture a friendly piece.  Correct?

Thanks!

Michael Nelson wrote on Sun, May 8, 2005 03:32 PM UTC:
Confiming that I did indeed submit the Odin's Rune ZRF a couple of months ago and its receipt was acknowleged.

💡📝Gary Gifford wrote on Sun, May 8, 2005 01:51 PM UTC:
Mike Nelson created a very strong Odin's Rune Chess ZRF. The Zillion's Engine understands the strange pawns, the Valkyries' ability to relocate pieces, the Kings' reliance on other pieces for advice, etc. In my opinion it is an excellent ZRF. But as for where the ZRF is, I don't know. I thought Mike submitted it about 2 months ago. Perhaps it resides in a folder somewhere, waiting to be posted. I'll send an e-mail to the editors and see if they have it. Also, it may be posted at Zillions by now.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Sun, May 8, 2005 12:45 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Is there a ZRF available for this game?. I think Mike Nelson was doing some related work, but I don`t know if it is finished.

💡📝Gary Gifford wrote on Mon, Mar 28, 2005 09:45 PM UTC:
This is in regard to the question about a King next to a King moving (when the King desired to move is adjacent only to only a friendly King). A King will not take advice from another King, so a King only next to a King will not move. I have written an addendum which addresses this and a few other issues. Hopefully it will be posted in the near future. The basics are that: (a) Valkyries will not move Valkyries (this is like a non-move), (b) Kings (when acting like a Valkyrie) will not move the other King (this would be like a non-move) and (c) Kings will not take advice from other Kings. I think the addendum covers a few other issues. Also note that Mike Nelson made a nice zrf of Odin's Rune Chess. I don't think it is posted yet, but when it is it will give you an excellent idea of how to play and will give you some nice tactical skills. It took me several games before I could defeat it on the low levels.

Anonymous wrote on Mon, Mar 28, 2005 08:18 PM UTC:
Can a King that is adjacent to the other friendly King, which is adjacent to a friendly non-royal piece move as that piece? For example, in Diagram 1 on this page, could White play King D2 - C3?

💡📝Gary Gifford wrote on Sat, Mar 12, 2005 11:43 PM UTC:
I am glad to hear that Michael Nelson's ZRF coding for Odin's Rune Chess
is going well. I am anxious to see the result.  Thank you Michael, for
undertaking the task. 

Michael wrote: is it legal to use the Valkyrie swap to make a null move?
That is if a Valkyrie on c6 swaps the other Valkyrie at c9 back to c6,
then you have made a move but the position on the board hasn't changed.

Michael is correct to not allow a 'null-swap.'  But also it is important
to note that the 'move/relocate' aspect does not mean the relocated piece
has to land on the start square of the Valkyrie [or King acting like a
Valkyrie]  it can be any square in that Valkrie piece's travel.  Someone
might then wonder, 'Couldn't the one Valkyrie relocate the other to a
square other than its start square?  Or the Valkyrie King relocate the
other King in the same manner?'   As for relocating the second Valkrie
[to other than the 1st Valkyries' start square] this would be the same as
if we simply moved the 1st Valkyrie to that relocate square, so it makes no
sense to do such a swap. Technically that move would be allowed; but there
is no point in it. 

Michael stated 'In most CV's the answer is 'No', so I have coded
accordingly: a Valkyrie cannot swap positions with the other Valkyrie and
a King using a Valkyrie move connot swap positions with the other King.'

Yes, that is the correct assumption.  But for other pieces note that it
need not be a position exchange.  The relocate square can be any through
wich the Valkyrie traveled, plus its start square. 

Another issue may need pointed out.  If one side cannot move, it is not a
stalemate.  The non-moving side simply losses. - gkg

Michael Nelson wrote on Sat, Mar 12, 2005 07:25 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Here is the 'Excellent' I thought I would be giving this fine game.
Having seen it in action while coding the ZRF, I am quite convinced of the
game's quality. 

The piece set is quite interesting and works well together. The Pawns are
unusual but easy to learn to use. The Pawns are quite strong: I'd guess
about halfway between a Ferz and a Knight (slightly closer to Ferz). 

The Forest Ox is the big gun of the board on both offense and defense. 

The Valkyrie is not quite as strong as the Forest Ox, but is much more
powerful than a Queen: the swap move allows if easier developement (can
swap with a Pawn in the opening setup) and more ways of escaping trouble,
while still having all of a Queen's move and capture power. 

Rook and Bishop are minor pieces, with the Rook the stronger but with less
gap between them than in FIDE Chess, since a Valkyrie swap can get the
Bishop to the opposite color.

The idea of the King's movement depending on the friendly pieces adjacent
to it works quite well here and I'd love to see it used in other
variants.

Overall, a highly playable and enjoyable game.

Michael Nelson wrote on Sat, Mar 12, 2005 07:09 PM UTC:
Garry,

I have a working ZRF implementing all the rules as you have given them on
the web page. Please send me the graphics files and I will finish the
implementation.

The Valkyrie swap is evaluated correctly when involving non-royal pieces,
only the swap with a King is problematic. The bug is in the evaluation of
win/loss/draw conditions within the consideration of the move: removing a
royal piece temporarily to replace it elsewhere is deemed a loss, whereas
after the move is executed and Zillions checks the conditions, it is
handled correctly. In other words, during a swap move, Zillions mistakenly
thinks the temporary disappearance of the King while it is being swapped to
another square is permanent.

In any case, the indirect capture target technique solves the problem.

One question: is it legal to use the Valkyrie swap to make a null move?
That is if a Valkyrie on c6 swaps the other Valkyrie at c9 back to c6,
then you have made a move but the position on the board hasn't changed.

In most CV's the answer is 'No', so I have coded accordingly: a
Valkyrie cannot swap positions with the other Valkyrie and a King using a
Valkyrie move connot swap positions with the other King.

If you intend to allow null moves it is trivially simple to change the
code to allow them.

💡📝Gary Gifford wrote on Sat, Mar 12, 2005 04:55 PM UTC:
I don't know much about ZRFs (other than I have been impressed by many) but in Odin's Rune Chess if the Valkyrie capture/relocation of its own Kings is seen as a 'negative' capture to be avoided, then wouldn't Valkyrie capture/relocates of other friendly pieces also pose a programming problem? Also, would Zillions willingly move one King into Check on purpose as part of a combination to win the game or even material? I would think that the Valkryie aspect could possibly be seen as a 'special castling' condition available for all friendly pieces. And since Kings must be captured, perhaps the entire 'Check' aspect can be witheld from the ZRF... after all, the checks are essentially meaningless and it is actually not wise to announce check. It is the capture of the second King that really counts. Again, I know nothing of Zillions ZRF coding, but peraps some of my comments will trigger some good code thought. If anyone wants ODIN gif images for gaming use let me know and I'll send them after adding transparent green to the existing gifs. Best regards. Sincerely, Gary K. Gifford

Michael Nelson wrote on Fri, Mar 11, 2005 06:25 PM UTC:
I will start development this weekend. I can use a coventional board and
piece graphics while I'm perfecting the implementation and substitute the
final graphics later. I might be able to derive the images I need from the
picture on the Web page, which looks really good.

By the way, Peter, I should have credited you with the indirect capture
target technique which I learned from you. It simplifies many complex
situtations as well as the king swap issue. It is, for example, essential
to the implementation of the Decima 10-points condition.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Fri, Mar 11, 2005 06:15 PM UTC:
Mike, you can try a ZRF, I was planning make the code, but I´m afraid I can´t do that in the next 3-4 weeks, because I am going to be a bit busy. If yoy try, I can give you a hand if you need it, and I can also contribute sending images for the game, but I´ll need some time to do that, let´s see if I can find some free time.

Peter Aronson wrote on Fri, Mar 11, 2005 06:09 PM UTC:
<i><blockquote> If anyone is, you will need some code trickery--a straight forward 'capture both kings' type win condition will make Zillions very hesistant to use the Valkyrie swap move on a King--during move evaluation, Zillions erroneously considers this to be a loss of the King, though it treats the move correctly when actually determining if the win condition is achieved. </blockquote></i> <p> The easiest way around this is to not allow the Valkyrie to swap with the friendly King, but rather, allow the King the ability to swap with a friendly Valkyrie -- this avoids panicing Zillions. <p> Another approach (used in Rococo.zrf) is to use an indirect capture target piece that is on a dummy square, and have capturing the King capture that piece as well. Since the swap move wouldn't have the code to capture the off-board target piece, then again, Zillions wouldn't panic at the swap move.

Michael Nelson wrote on Fri, Mar 11, 2005 05:27 PM UTC:
I am witholding a rating until I get a chance to playtest it, but unless
there is some hidden flaw I expect to rate it 'excellent'. The game
concept is very innovative and I particulaly like those quirky Pawns.

Is anyone working on a ZRF for this game? If not, I will try it myself. 

If anyone is, you will need some code trickery--a straight forward
'capture both kings' type win condition will make Zillions very
hesistant to use the Valkyrie swap move on a King--during move evaluation,
Zillions erroneously considers this to be a loss of the King, though it
treats the move correctly when actually determining if the win condition
is achieved. Email me for details.

Charles Gilman wrote on Wed, Mar 2, 2005 07:44 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
The piece represented by the 'Ethel' rune could be considered a Crooked
Boar. The Boar in my variant Truffle Hunt Chess is also a colourbound
enhanced Ferz on the Pawn rank, but enhanced by the forward moves of the
Elephant with some pieces blocking it if on the intermediate cell. I
interpret the crooked form of a move along either forward diagonal as
alternating between the two, thus a Crooked Mitre would have half the
Ferz
moves, but only a quarter of the Crooked Bishop's non-Ferz moves.
	As a matter of general interest, my own use of Valkyrie is for a 3d
piece, a Rook that can also move exactly 2 cells diagonally OR
triagonally.

Gary Gifford wrote on Tue, Mar 1, 2005 05:45 PM UTC:
Thanks to all who have commented on this new game. Comments are much appreciated. Here I wish to respectfully address two piece issues that were raised. (1) One comment was that the colorbound pawns were likely not a good idea. I need to point out that the pawns are not truly color-bound because Valkyries can rellocate friendly pawns to an opposite color square. But aside from the Valkyrie factor, the Ethel Pawns are much like little strange Bishops confined to a Runic vector. But, that was part of the game design, i.e., to adhere to Runic images and interpretation. [note: the Ethel Pawns are certainly far more free than the Chinese Chess Elephants and Guards]. Anyway, the Ethel pawns are only truly color-bound after the player losses both Valkries. In Chess we often hear of 'Opposite colored Bishop endings' which are typically drawish. In Odin's Rune Chess we can now experience 'opposite color pawn endings.' Of course, Valkries can change these opposite color endings. (2) There was also a comment about the Kings' dependency on adjacent pieces. Indeed, the Kings can be very strong or completely powerless. The writer stated that players may go after non-royal pieces to weaken the Kings. But is that a bad thing? Now players may have to treat other pieces, at times, with the same respect usually reserved for Kings. I think it makes for richer strategic and tactical possibilities. Time shall tell. Regards to all, Gary K. Gifford

Charles Gilman wrote on Tue, Mar 1, 2005 09:55 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
The piece represented by the 'Ethel' rune could be considered a Crooked
Boar. The Boar in my variant Truffle Hunt Chess is also a colourbound
enhanced Ferz on the Pawn rank, but enhanced by the forward moves of the
Elephant with some pieces blocking it if on the intermediate cell. I
interpret the crooked form of a move along either forward diagonal as
alternating between the two, thus a Crooked Mitre would have half the
Ferz
moves, but only a quarter of the Crooked Bishop's non-Ferz moves.
	As a matter of general interest, my own use of Valkyrie is for a 3d
piece, a Rook that can also move exactly 2 cells diagonally OR
triagonally.

David Paulowich wrote on Mon, Feb 28, 2005 08:44 PM UTC:
How can one describe the (colorbound) Pawns of Odin’s Rune Chess? Well, a Silver General in Shogi has 5 of the 8 moves of a King. A Pawn in this game has 5 of the 12 moves of a Jester in Sidney LeVasseur's Kings Court Chess. A truly exciting innovation.

Roberto Lavieri wrote on Mon, Feb 28, 2005 07:11 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Beautiful!. I have to play a test game to take a better idea. Is it going to be a ZRF available?. If not, I can try codifying it, but I´ll need a couple of weeks, I have some other things to do at first.

21 comments displayed

LatestLater Reverse Order Earlier

Permalink to the exact comments currently displayed.