The Chess Variant Pages
Custom Search




[ Help | Earliest Comments | Latest Comments ]
[ List All Subjects of Discussion | Create New Subject of Discussion ]
[ List Latest Comments Only For Pages | Games | Rated Pages | Rated Games | Subjects of Discussion ]

Comments/Ratings for a Single Item

Later Reverse Order Earlier
This item is a game information page
It belongs to categories: Orthodox chess, 
It was last modified on: 2006-02-07
 By (zzo38) A.  Black. Xorix Shogi. Shogi where piece movement are XORed with captured pieces. (9x9, Cells: 81) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
(zzo38) A. Black wrote on 2011-04-10 UTC
This file is difficult to edit due to the TEXTAREA tags. Correcting it would involve using the htmlspecialchars or htmlentities command on the contents of the page when putting it inside of TEXTAREA boxes. (I was trying to add a description of the OR-AND variant, which I think was invented by Fergus Duniho)

(zzo38) A. Black wrote on 2007-01-05 UTC
I made 16 moves in the Xorix Shogi preset, but it wouldn't let me do the last one (5h-5i).
1. 9g-9f 
1... 7c-7d 
2. 5i-5h 
2... 8a-7c 
3. 8g-8f 
3... 2c-2d 
4. 8i-9g 
4... 8b-5b 
5. 7g-7f 
5... 5c-5d 
6. 6g-6f 
6... 5d-5e 
7. 5g-5f 
7... 5e-5f 
8. 4g-4f 
8... 5f-5g 
9. 5h-5i

(zzo38) A. Black wrote on 2006-02-07 UTC
There is a problem with the page editor when the is used. This should be corrected, probably by replacing < with < and > with > when editing the page (it will probably send back to the server correctly).

Gary Gifford wrote on 2006-02-03 UTC
Fergus, I thought it would be good if A. Black would play you since he created the game and then you, of course, brought it into reality. You are the 2 individuals who understand the game the most... so a game between the two Xorix Shogi theoretically best minds would be logical and looked forward to by onlookers. At the moment I am a bit fatigued from game analysis, but am still playing (play-testing) a few games of my own and of others. And I bumped into a good college friend of mine at a CV invitation to Grand Chess (we last spoke and saw each other in 1981)... so I could not miss the chance to play that game. But if you have no challengers within a few weeks I will consider giving XS a try. Best regards, and hopefully A. Black will accept your challenge.

Fergus Duniho wrote on 2006-02-03 UTC
I am seriously interested in trying out this game. That's why I made a full piece set and wrote a rule-enforcing preset. I've sent a private invitation to A. and have issued an open invitation for anyone, but so far no takers. Is there anyone interested in trying this game out?

(zzo38) A. Black wrote on 2006-01-23 UTC
All pieces other than the King can promote. Promoting really just changes the piece type (except if the piece already has that power). This is because the pieces can change so often, the promotion rule had to be changed from normal Shogi.

Also, the promotion happens after capturing and is optional unless it couldn't move from where it is standing (like in Shogi). Also, all pieces can always move one space straight forward, no matter what other power it has or doesn't have (the Honored-Horse and Angle-Mover start move more powerful than how they do in Shogi).

Jared McComb wrote on 2006-01-22 UTC
If I may clarify Larry Smith's clarification: When one piece captures 
another, the capturing piece gets all the captured piece's moves, except 
for those it already had, which it loses instead.  It's a bit of 
a 'toggle' if you will.

I tried to say that almost immediately after this game was posted but for 
some reason the comment system decided it hated me.

Fergus Duniho wrote on 2006-01-22 UTC
Larry, the text says the game is played the same as Shogi except as the
additional rules change it. The first rule concerns promotions. It says
that when a piece promotes, it gains the power to move one space
orthogonally. The text is ambiguous on what this means. I take it to mean
that a piece gains the powers of movement of a Wazir. More precisely, it
gains the power to move one space horizontally or vertically backward,
since all pieces can already move one space vertically forward. Using the
piece scheme I designed, this would be the result of ORing a piece's
number with 2.

The text here is ambiguous on one more point. It doesn't say which pieces
can promote. One interpretation is that only pieces corresponding to the
promotable Shogi pieces can promote. But I don't make this
interpretation. My interpretation is that any piece that cannot already
move as a Wazir can promote.

Larry Smith wrote on 2006-01-22 UTC
Are there any other form of promotions, besides the capturing move?

Fergus Duniho wrote on 2006-01-22 UTC
The rules are unclear on how to handle a move that involves both a capture and a promotion. If promotion is handled before the capture, this could result in a piece that can't move. Therefore, I assume that the XORing of a capturing piece always happens before promotion. I also presume that promotion is mandatory whenever a piece would otherwise be unable to move, but that it is optional otherwise. This interpretation of the rules will prevent the possibility of having pieces that can't move anywhere.

Larry Smith wrote on 2006-01-22 UTCGood ★★★★
Very interesting idea!

You may probably better explain XOR for those who are not computer-savvy.

I'll try to summarize the XOR equation.  

If the capturing piece is A, the captured piece is B and the result is C,
then the formula will be expressed as A (+) B = C.

Thus:

If A = 0 and B = 0 then C = 0.
If A = 1 and B = 0 then C = 1.
If A = 0 and B = 1 then C = 1.
If A = 1 and B = 1 then C = 0.

0 represents the absence of a particular form of move, while 1 represents
the presence of the same.

A possible shorter form is to say that if a particular form of move is
present in one of the pieces, but not both, it will be present in the
capturing piece.  If a particular form is present in both pieces, it will
NOT be present in the capturing piece.

Then again, there really might be no simple way to explain. So the game
may be relegated to those who are already aware of its dynamics.

I have been developing a 15x15 Shogi game for the past two years.  It was
put on a back burner because there was really nothing special about.  But
the idea of applying boolean equations has now tweaked my imagination, 
and I may work this into the game. In that case, I might make it a 16x16 
game. ;-)

Fergus Duniho wrote on 2006-01-22 UTC
I have now completed a set of pieces for Xorix Shogi. Contrary to the plans
I gave earlier, I used hexadecimal instead of octal and rearranged the
bit-order of the powers of movement. Details are on the page for the
pieces:

http://www.chessvariants.org/graphics.dir/xorixshogi/index.html

I plan to work on a preset tomorrow.

Christine Bagley-Jones wrote on 2006-01-21 UTCExcellent ★★★★★
wow, your really 'out there' blackie, trippy game, well done. 
(probably the 2 ratings you got were a bit premature, so lets *bump* it)

Fergus Duniho wrote on 2006-01-21 UTC
Shortly after waking up this morning, I realized how to program this game
for Game Courier. If it represents each piece by a number, it can XOR the
numbers together to determine what a piece changes to when it captures
another piece.  Also, instead of writing separate movement functions for
each piece, I can write a single subroutine, or maybe a function, that
handles all non-royal piece movement by checking the bits in the numbers
representing the pieces. Given this, the first thing to start with is to
identify the basic types of movement in this game. Each basic type of
movement is the largest group of possible moves that will always be found
together. More succinctly, what are the largest indivisible sets of moves
in this game? Here's what I identify.

Forward Vertical Leap

Horizontal or Backward Vertical Leaps
Forward Diagonal Leaps
Backward Diagonal Leaps

Forward Vertical Ride of 2+ spaces
Horizontal or Backward Vertical Rides of 2+ spaces
Diagonal Rides of 2+ spaces

Forward Knight Leaps

Since every piece can leap one space vertically forward, the forward
vertical leap doesn't have to be identified by a bit. Seven sets remain,
giving a total of 128 possible pieces. I have separated these into three
groups. There is a group for one space leaps, a group for riding moves,
and a group for Knight leaps. This is to accomodate octal representation
of the piece numbers. Base 8 has the advantage over base 10 of every digit
always having the same meaning in the same place. It shares this advantage
with base 2 and base 16, but it strikes a better balance than either of
these between being easy to decode (as base 2 is) and being easy to
identify (as base 16 is). The computer doesn't care what base the pieces
are represented in, but using octal numbers will better enable humans to
use the numbers as mnemonics for remembering how pieces move. Accordingly,
each piece would get an octal number, ranging from 0 for a Pawn to 177 for
a piece that can move as a Queen or a Shogi Knight. The usual Shogi pieces
would be Pawn 0, Lance 10, Knight 100, Silver General 6, Gold General 3,
Bishop 46, and Rook 33.

(zzo38) A. Black wrote on 2006-01-21 UTC
Zillions and Game Courier are good to make many kinds of Chess Variants, but not this one. I will probably create a program using QBASIC, PHP, or something else, to demonstrate how it works, play against myself, and other people.

O, and later I will try game myself before posting, to make sure is good, against other people to make sure the rule are clear, etc. Some of the games I posted I actually did try, but not all. Later I will do try before post. Thanks for your suggestion!

Also, about the interpretation of the rules, it is like a Flying-Chariot/Rook capturing a Fragrant-Chariot/Lance now moves like a rook but not more than one space forward, a Angle-Mover/Bishop capturing a piece moving like a queen turns into a rook (bishop XOR queen = rook). So what you said is correct.

Fergus Duniho wrote on 2006-01-20 UTC
There are two ways of interpreting the rules for this game. I think I know
which interpretation is correct, but it should be clarified. On one
interpretation, the powers of the captured piece are taken as those it
will have when it gets dropped by the player who captured it. On this
interpretation, a Pawn that captures another Pawn does not change its
powers of movement, a Rook that captures a Lance loses the ability to ride
forward, and a Gold General that captures a Silver General will move as a
Gold General in reverse. On the other interpretation, the powers of the
captured piece are taken as those it has prior to capture. On this
interpretation, a Pawn that captures another Pawn can now move one space
forward or backward, a Rook that captures a Lance loses the ability to
move backward, and a Gold General that captures a Silver General can move
diagonally backward, horizontally, or vertically forward.

I think the first interpretation is the correct one. The text mentions
putting the piece in hand (what it calls putting it on your bench) before
it mentions XORing the two pieces together. This interpretation also has
the advantage of requiring fewer different types of pieces. I think it
requires something on the order of 256 separate piece types, and the
second interpretation requires something on the order of 2048 separate
piece types. This assumes that I've counted the basic types of movement
accurately. The actual figures will be a bit less, since some
combinations, such as a Lance that can't move one space forward, won't
be included. But they are still high.

Making this into a ZRF or Game Courier preset would be long, tedious work.
Since neither ZRF nor GAME Code has the ability to XOR powers of movement,
each possible capture would have to be separately coded. I'm not
interested in taking the time to do this myself. But what I could do, if
someone else is interested in doing the rest, is to supply a set of
graphics. I can do this by writing a PHP script that automatically
generates diagrammatic pieces by coloring different sections of a standard
template. Maybe it could also mark the pieces with Betza's funny notation.

Fergus Duniho wrote on 2006-01-20 UTCGood ★★★★
A. Black,

This comment concerns your whole output here, not just this game, though
it seems to be a prime example of what I'm talking about. In general, you
should playtest every game you post here before you post it. When you post
using a system that allows you to bypass editorial review, it is up to you
to review yourself. Instead of posting every one of your ideas, put your
best face forward by posting only stuff you can stand behind and say 'I
know this is good.' Given that this game requires a computer to play and
you have not provided a ZRF, a Game Courier preset, or a program that
plays it, I assume you have never played this game. Let me recommend that
you get Zillions of Games and use it to try out and develop your games
before posting them here. It is an invaluable tool for Chess variant
designers.

Unlike Michael, I think I understand the rules. But they could use
clarification for readers who are not computer programmers. When one piece
captures another, it gets all the powers of movement that the two pieces
did not share in common, and it loses any they did share in common, except
for the ability to move one space forward, which all pieces retain. So, for
example, if a Rook captured a Bishop, it would be able to move as a Queen;
if a Rook captured a Queen, it could move as a Bishop or a Pawn; and if a
Rook captured another Rook, it could move only as a Pawn.

This might be an interesting game, and it might be a good one, but without
a ZRF available for it, I'm not going to try it out.

17 comments displayed

Later Reverse Order Earlier

Permalink to the exact comments currently displayed.