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Joe Joyce wrote on Thu, Mar 27, 2008 04:23 PM UTC:
Hi, all. A garage is a place where you can dump a lot of stuff, and I plan
to do that here, covering several topics. First, my apologies for my
rather erratic move and comment timing lately; there's illness in the
family and it's disrupting things here. Everything should be resolved in
a few months, and then I expect to actually have some time [dreamer that I
am, I *never* have half the time I want!] On to the pile of stuff in the
garage.

I was waiting for someone to jump in and defend my 2 games against
George's ratings, but as no one has, let me leap into the fray. George,
you panned Great Shatranj and Chesimal Fusion I; why you pick on my good
games is beyond me. I have games posted that are terrible; SpaceWar in
particular is unplayable as is. Finally got a chance to playtest it with a
brother, and the game just doesn't work. This led me directly to the idea
of a 'Games Garage' for broken games. I floated the idea to a couple
designers, and one said he'd act as guest mechanic on occasion. The other
will drop in and comment, anyhow [and if we're real nice, maybe he'll
pick up a wrench]. So, the garage will be built in the wiki, and SpaceWar
will be moved off the CVPages and into the garage. 

Apprentice mechanics welcome. The wiki is an excellent place to work
cooperatively on games. Juan has made a proposal [pairing designers and
novices] which may be too ambitious, but we can test out his idea at the
garage. Any design put into the garage is fair game for *any* one to poke
around in. Questions and discussions are also welcome. [Everyone knows
mechanics are lazy and would rather talk than work... ;-) ] And remember,
the final part of fixing a car is to test it. SO there will be a test bed.


The garage will accept broken games, old games that need a tune up, games
that hesitate or want a new engine installed. Heck, we might even do paint
jobs. The garage will also accept the curious, hangers-on, checkers
players, and anyone who wants to get their hands dirty. Rules will be
minimal, and posted. 

Comments?

Charles Daniel wrote on Thu, Mar 27, 2008 06:47 PM UTC:
My condolences on Space War - I just looked at it and it seems very
interesting. 
 
Regarding your garage - I sort of agree with you but your idea allows
people to play around with suspected 'bad' games and ignoring the
thousands of 'not sure' games out there.  Assuming you get a group of
people to playtest(that may not happen..), it seems the time is best
spending on games that no one is quite sure about. So more like a center
for test driving new cars or never before driven cars , or exotic cars ..
) 
And there is no need in removing it from chessvariants is there?



Regarding comments on games, there are different directions this site can
go. Like Youtube which is essentially (in my opinion) a complete spam site
where everyone just flames the other videos - almost no constructive
criticism. I feel sorry for some of the real performance artists on
youtube - they get the worst comments of all. 
Or like a writing workshop (e.g. critters.org) where members try to read
each the other's work and ideally give some constructive criticism. Being
a member there - it does work for the most part.  

Or maybe stay the same - a  little bit of both ..) 




Anyway maybe my point being maybe Joes Garage can do more test drives of
new cars or never before driven cars as well . Or give some results of
already driven cars ..)

Gary Gifford wrote on Thu, Mar 27, 2008 09:12 PM UTC:
Joe, you write: 'Juan has made a proposal [pairing designers and novices] which may be too ambitious, but we can test out his idea at the garage.'

I think Juan's idea is fine and does not seem overly ambitious to me. We would just need to see if enough designers were interested and enough first-time designers were interested. If not, then the garage is an option.

In regard to defending your games... do they really need defended? Just list your critic's points, then use logic to tear them down. It should be a simple task. In event you cannot tear down a point, then (in that case) you would likely need to say, 'I think you are right about this aspect.'

I think it is best for a critic to play a game before attacking it... but there is a lot of the 'Green Eggs and Ham Syndrome' and they will be quick to say they do not like it without trying it. Perhaps some required reading is in order for all would-be game critics?

P.S. Another idea is to take a critic's points and apply them to one of his (or her own games)... the results can be interesting.


Rich Hutnik wrote on Fri, Mar 28, 2008 02:42 AM UTC:
If any novices want to be paired with a designer, feel free to get paired
with IAGO Chess and play out the B-Class.  I would love to hear feedback. 
As soon as I can get a thing or two tweaked in a Zillions adaptation, it
should be good to go.  I do want to get the recycling working correctly on
it, before it is up.  As is a guideline for B-Class and greater (outside of
V and X Classes) the piece mix and the rules need to match up.

Joe Joyce wrote on Fri, Mar 28, 2008 04:24 PM UTC:
Charles, Gary, thanks for your responses. First I'd like to say that I
floated the idea of the garage in addition to, rather than instead of,
Invent and Play. And I think Juan's idea is quite interesting [and
ambitious, but I certainly don't have anything against ambition] and
surely deserves to be tried out as a third separate idea. However, the
rather loose structure of the garage lends itself to taking on [at least
most of] the functions of the other 2. So I offer it as a fallback
position, should there be need of one. As designers, Gary, I think I've
been drafted, and you just volunteered... :-D

As far as defending my games, well, actually, George went to a lot of
trouble to pan those games, and I don't want him to feel bad that I
didn't keep up my end. That line I wrote in my previous comment was more
of a throwaway line to introduce the garage than to really defend my
games. Guess I shoulda put the smiley face in my statement, I didn't mean
it to be taken very seriously.*

The point about SpaceWar is that, as a concept game, it's interesting,
but now that I know it's unworkable in its present form, I don't think
it should be onsite, because now it's a fraud, in that it purports to be
a game, but it's been shown to be unplayable. And all the games I've
posted were intended to be playable. So, it gets booted. If/when it's
fixed, it'll come back. I do like the idea, and thank you, Charles, for
the kind words. 

And this leads me to the CVwiki, which we are not really using all that
much. It's a great place to play, I hope more people join us. I've been
using it to work on games that may not yet be ready for prime time. I
think it's the perfect place to put those !?!? games, the ones you're
not sure of, but really want to do. They're out where everybody can see
[and play] them, but they're not yet 'official' CV games, so you can do
things and take chances you might not with a 'serious CV'. Well, that's
my take, for what it's worth.

*don't believe any of that, George, you're killing me - keep up the good
work

George Duke wrote on Sun, Sep 14, 2008 09:15 PM UTC:
Asking for help, Joyce says ''apologies for cross-posting.'' Joe's new
pollutant index under ''Very Large CVs,'' applicable he says to
''anything,'' belongs here at Joe's Garage. Joe says this is ''a
place where you can dump a lot of stuff.''  Joe's Garage states, ''I
have games posted that are terrible; SpaceWar is unplayable as is.''
Five-Comment thread Joyce started suits Joyce's developing 1%, 10%, 99%
analysis. He assures there is more to come, well and good. Back at Large CVs topic, I individually rated 200-300 Large CVs
under each individual article in 2005; and over 10% are Excellent. None are over 256 squares
16x16 by simple nature of CVPage conformist design practice. Huge CVs Joyce
now emulates are very rare. Neatham's categories may be coarse at
approximately 40-80, and 80-160. It was useful to refine categories
further for Game Designs, one range of 72-84 being called Large. No great moment, in that exact number of spaces is clearly operable. However, there are shadings. Is
game-of-the-decade Rococo 100 squares -- considering the way border
squares are reachable only to capture? For earlier formulaic evaluation in
2004, we count Rococo as but 82 squares, each outline square being estimated 1/2.

George Duke wrote on Mon, Jul 19, 2010 03:33 PM UTC:
Garages, inventions, tech hi tech low, history of garages.... Under CVPage auspices, Europeans and Euroamericans certainly have the Next Chesses for 2020-2099. You could misspell auspices ''as pieces.'' It will be hard to further intercede courses already set so far as particular CV rules-sets. Here and there a tweak and minor revision. Will the large topic, CVPage approaching 30,000 comments now, be revisited in the 2020s on that scale? No, like the Goddess Chess Weave 1000s comments, http://www.goddesschess.com/theweave/theweavetoc.html, of 1997-2000 it is one-time for all time. Good choice by Joe Joyce to name thread mythical ''Garage,'' stand-in for tech in what would come out of another garage or two. Get the drift? Change the world or let copycats change the world, same difference, since the world gets changed anyway. Without money transfers all the more emphatically. Never mind some items developed before CVPage 1995 inception or outside the site, later conflated, like Fischer Random Chess. CVPage did the exemplary work and needs appropriate follow-up scaling, of course a great task itself, stepwise and stepwise towards full transnational acceptance. Expect unintended consequences from a lot too of unmaking of old ways since Chess of 64 origination is justifiably pre-Islamic let alone pre-Internet. [Unexpected? Diversity in CVs and games, and proliferation of their forms. Or, since Chess as belief system has ramifications, as Weave-link discussions above show, fourth-worlders are indigenouos peoples, respecting ecology and environment. Or, no more ''New World Orders'' -- an exact coincidental phrase of both Hitler and Bush II in the last 75 years, being as they are such distant poles apart. Or, have not two classic Chessic world orders been enough with missions fulfilled? Which is to say, Chaturanga and the continuing-since-1924 F.i.d.e. follow-up to it? Inter-European-Wars 1924 of f.i.d.e. reign to present would be coterminus with higher-tech ''modernizations,'' radio, tv, computer progressively. Or, such as offshore oils' unexpected consequences as hypocritical. After all, what did you or any thinking person expect? Change the foundation of religion or of play and change the individual's and the nation's behavioral comportment.] :) Postscript: the earlier Joe's Garage comments appear to be missing. [Later: New World Order is more linked to Bush I than II.]

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