Comments by catugo

For some reason the AI pushes pawns very late.

It gave an error, forfeit due to invalid move, I guess white wanted to promote at 8 rank!

H.G., I think I'm all lost!

I can't figure how to set up the proper initial position. As a matter a fact I'm not sure I understand much from what you send me earlier(the text for the .ini  file i mean) besides the board on some piece movements. But you have put an example with all the pieces, so that's fine. I'll manage with that.

That doesn't work either!

well, for an Aanca I can use the property of sliders that their move is a union of many lame leaper moves. But you should see that formula, and moreover, I don't think that is recomended programming wise. I still haven't give up.

On the last matter I think the Aanca may be Leap(1,0)+Slide(d,a), but I have to check, the griffin is somewhat similar. The trouble with the griffin is that you have to ban 4 steps (the ones like an wazir).

H.G.,

I have not managed to define the Aanca and the Griffin in Sjaak. Have you any idea?

One think I haven't confessed yet is that I partially like the idea of chess960. Having different starting position is interesting. But not ANY different position. I think in many games you can fine tune 2 to n different setups. And then choose among them. I'm not the first who thought at this I'm sure.

How this does affect this post. I'd like apothecary 1 and apothecary 2 to have 2 possible initial positions. The first one is the one already presented named from now until the hereafter the bishops in or knights out position. The second one name from now until the hereafter the bishops out or knights in has the bishops and knights (each variant with it's own knights) switched.

With sjaak I can just plug two variants with the 2 starting setups, but with the diagram from the presumed variant page it's more complicated, I assume a button switching between the two positions will be involved.

It's that hard to do H.G.? Can you help me with that , too?

I think there is a way with sjaak to implement my way of promotion. Just create 2 different promotion zones, allow promotion to pawn when the case and that's it. Not tried it yet.

Thanks, H.G. As always helpful!

I was playing against myself, after you blunder a piece you can't go back, and I don't remember the whole game after 25 moves (actually less). Also I did not kept records. I think though it is a good idea now that I advanced a little bit to keep records as some games could prove interesting.

Thanks, for all the help!

I've reached a conundrum. I am far from being a chess grand master, I blunder way to often usually full pieces, the last time I missed a pin, silly me. I can't test the game further into endgame because of that. At my level the game becomes played quite soon, as chances for blunders are increased. On the other hand it was supposed to be an enhancement to the play at high levels. Do you see the conundrum?

HG,

Now it works well!

H.G.

"So there now is a corrected file at http://www.membergraphics/MSinteractive-diagrams/betza.gif ."

It doesn't work from here. When I paste this link in my broser it says: Server not found.

 

Fergus,

How many points would players get, or at least a victory in Gross chess should worth more that a victory in Omega chess as a tiebreak, in order to also increase stakes as the tournament passes.

H.G.,

About the pawn, this pawn is slightly weaker than in capablanca as it takes slightly longer to promote, not a big deal, if it's a passed pawn will eventually queen. But there is also a strengthening effect as it can promote at rank 8 to rook (well to a plethora of pieces but the best choice is usually rook). I have no clue how to evaluate this effect but it shouldn't be much as early under promotions will not happen often, I raise that matter because it's specific to those two games.

On the matter of archbishop+pawn there is no reason to doubt you, but I honestly don't know how to normalize everything. There is also no reason to think queens have different strengths between to two games for example. and what about the situation (admittedly rare) R+3P VS archbishop, point being is hard to find a balance.

I'd be honored if you take your time and put forward some values of your own, or on the other hand put some values at first glance.

I think in these cases machine learning could tune very well values, I've read an article somewhere on atomic chess and other games but I can't find it now.

And it doesn't have to be a 1dimesional value an archbishop could worth 10.5 in an A+P vs Q ending and 9.5 in a R+3P vs A ending. I don't know.

You were correct on yesterday assessment that the game is tedious. It takes a lot of time to reach endgame, actually in all cases I ended games through small blunders of pieces in early or late middle game. It became obvious IMO who'll win. :) At least it's not Taikyoku shogi I doubt anyone started that one, finishing it is out of question I guess.

I think both the tournaments, and the video game ideas are good, should we start a post on each of those?

I did it correctly once again this is how it goes:

 

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=PBRCWNAQG
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
king::::f2,,f9
champion::::e1,f1,,e10,f10
wizard:W:CF:mage:d1,g1,,d10,g10
knight:N:NmZ:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
aanca:A:WyafsW:tiger:b2,,b9
queen::::e2,,e9
griffin:G:FyafsF:gryphon:i2,,i9
</div></div>
<script>function WeirdPromotion(x1, y1,x2, y2, promo)
{
  if((board[y1][x1] & 15) != 1) return promo; // moved piece is not a Pawn
  if(y2 == 9 || y2 == 0) return ((promo & 15) == 1 ? 5 : promo); // on last rank: cannot stay Pawn
  if((promo & 15) > 7) return board[y1][x1]; // larger than Rook: remains Pawn
  return promo; // choice was acceptable
}
</script>

 

 

 

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=PBRELZNACQ
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
king::::e2,,e9
elephant:E:FAmH:elephant:e1,f1,,e10,f10
camel:L:CmW:camel:g1,,g10
zebra:Z:ZmF:zebra:d1,,d10
knight:N:NmG:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
archbishop:A:BN:cardinal:f2,,f9
chancellor::::i2,,i9
queen::::b2,,b9
</div></div>
<script>function WeirdPromotion(x1, y1,x2, y2, promo)
{
  if((board[y1][x1] & 15) != 1) return promo; // moved piece is not a Pawn
  if(y2 == 9 || y2 == 0) return ((promo & 15) == 1 ? 5 : promo); // on last rank: cannot stay Pawn
  if((promo & 15) > 8) return board[y1][x1]; // larger than Rook: remains Pawn
  return promo; // choice was acceptable
}
</script>

Ok, HG. I understand!

It doesn't work properly in the 3rd rank it promoted only to QBN it is suposed to be other pieces, and yes it does not promote at the 9 th rank. Don't worry though. It works fine when hadled manually!

Thanks, I'll fix that!

So no these are the scripts that allow you to play the games until in a few days when I post them on CVP!

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=ANQRBGWCP
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
queen::::e2,,e9
king::::f2,,f9
aanca:A:WyafsW:tiger:b2,,b9
griffin:G:FyafsF:gryphon:i2,,i9
champion::::e1,f1,,e10,f10
wizard:W:CF:mage:d1,g1,,d10,g10
knight:N:NmZ:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
</div></div>
<script>function WeirdPromotion(x1, y1,x2, y2, promo)
{
  if((board[y1][x1] & 15) != 1) return promo; // moved piece is not a Pawn
  if(y2 == 9 || y2 == 0) return ((promo & 15) == 1 ? 5 : promo); // on last rank: cannot stay Pawn
  if((promo & 15) > 4) return board[y1][x1]; // larger than Rook: remains Pawn
  return promo; // choice was acceptable
}
</script>

 

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=QAMRNBZELP
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
queen::::b2,,b9
king::::e2,,e9
archbishop:A:BN:cardinal:f2,,f9
chancellor::::i2,,i9
elephant:E:FAmH:elephant:e1,f1,,e10,f10
camel:L:CmW:camel:g1,,g10
zebra:Z:ZmF:zebra:d1,,d10
knight:N:NmG:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
</div></div>
<script>function WeirdPromotion(x1, y1,x2, y2, promo)
{
  if((board[y1][x1] & 15) != 1) return promo; // moved piece is not a Pawn
  if(y2 == 9 || y2 == 0) return ((promo & 15) == 1 ? 5 : promo); // on last rank: cannot stay Pawn
  if((promo & 15) > 4) return board[y1][x1]; // larger than Rook: remains Pawn
  return promo; // choice was acceptable
}
</script>

I had to change the order in promochoice, but the function works fine provided the piece list is open, or so I think, but that's not an issue

I appologise to have forgotten about this function, I've done so many attempts yesterday evening with other matters.

 

Actually I don't see many variants with aancas, griffins, or zebras. I assume there is good reason for that. That's why I considered the name paranoid chess, too, but my father advised me against it!

the archbishop is a bit high too maybe!

The html code posted earlier doesn't enforce the rule that the pawn can promote to almost a rook on ranks 8 and 9 so you must decline manually not to promote to an aanca, griffin, queen , archbishop, marshall.

Actually my mobility program gives the griffin roughly equal to a queen a little bit weaker on crowded boards but even stronger in the endgame. The Aanca is the strongest among the 3 in the beginning but quickly loses power becoming 21.5/26 queens in the endgame. Clearly stronger than stated. I think the conondrum comes from the fact that mister betza calculations are based on rook and bishop. So the result is that the rook and the bishop are stronger. The bishop is still 4 (ok maybe 4 and something) because it gets a colourboundness penalty, but the rook must be higher. My mobility program give 0.63 queens for the rook.

That beeing said 4 pawns are definetly better than a bishop in the endgame. Remember the rule that they can even promote to a rook on rank 8, but I never got that far with my calculations.

So new values:

rook                  7.25

wizard               3.8

champion            4

knight                 4

bishop               4.2

queen                12

aanca                 9

griffin                 11

 

Apothecary chess2

zebra                  3

camel               3.2

elephant            3.7

knight                3.4

bishop               4.2

queen                12

archbishop         10

marshall            11

rook                  7.25

I tinkered those 2 games a little bit and I came up with the following value of pieces based on their values in Omega Chess (omega chess website), Grand Chess (H.G.Muller values from wikipedia), Ralph Betza's evaluation of the aanca and griffin, mobility calculation for zebra, and my own observations playing the games, I also named the two games so I think I'm ready to maybe submit them, eventually:

Apothecary chess1

rook                   6

wizard               3.8

champion            4

knight                 4

bishop                4

queen                12

aanca                 7

griffin                8.75

 

Apothecary chess2

zebra                  3

camel               3.2

elephant            3.7

knight                3.4

bishop                4

queen                12

archbishop         10

marshall            11

 

I decided to name the games apothecary chess as they are obtained adding somewhat arbitrary mutations to well known games in the way apothecaries used to tinker their receipts.

I was concerned about the opening in the second game as I put the queen and marshall far from the center of the board. That happened mostly because I was not use to with an archbishop in the middle, but after a few trials it seems fine. I have seen the archbishop in the middle in Paulovich's variant of Capablanca chess, so I guess I am not the only one with this problem. I have done this in order to have the minor pieces (the ones who acording to opening principles attack first) closer to the middle. Although bishops could be 1 square more lateral.

I personally don't like multiplayer variants as I consider most of them unfair from the point of view that multiple players may attack the same victim. So if that's up to me I won't consider those. Playing against humans of the same level or close it's a good idea but it assumes a large enough number of players, not the case at least initially.

Regarding authority for the game, well the programmers are the main authority, who else. We or they (I'm not sure yet if I will get involved as I am more for more challenging tasks from an intellectual point of view) would consult the community of course.

Time should be enough maybe at blitz or a bit longer, not too fast as the player is not used to playing most of the variants, but not too tedious either.

I've made some experiments with those two games. It's actually quite exciting but I blunder pieces way to often! After I get some experience I hope to be able to provide a game of each! For now if you would like to try it yourself here are the scripts:

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=ANBQGWCR
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
queen::::e2,,e9
king::::f2,,f9
aanca:A:WyafsW:tiger:b2,,b9
griffin:G:FyafsF:gryphon:i2,,i9
champion::::e1,f1,,e10,f10
wizard:W:CF:mage:d1,g1,,d10,g10
knight:N:NmZ:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
</div></div>

 

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.chessvariants.com/membergraphics/MSinteractivedia/betza.gif"></script>
<div style="float:left;margin:0 40px 20px 0;">
<div id="diagram">
files=10
ranks=10
promoZone=3
promoChoice=QNBAMZELR
graphicsDir=http://www.chessvariants.com/graphics.dir/alfaerie/
whitePrefix=w
blackPrefix=b
graphicsType=gif
squareSize=54
symmetry=none
pawn::::a3,b3,c3,d3,e3,f3,g3,h3,i3,j3,,a8,b8,c8,d8,e8,f8,g8,h8,i8,j8
bishop::::d2,g2,,d9,g9
rook::::a1,j1,,a10,j10
queen::::b2,,b9
king::::e2,,e9
archbishop:A:BN:cardinal:f2,,f9
chancellor::::i2,,i9
elephant:E:FAmH:elephant:e1,f1,,e10,f10
camel:L:CmW:camel:g1,,g10
zebra:Z:ZmF:zebra:d1,,d10
knight:N:NmG:knight:c2,h2,,c9,h9
</div></div>

Just save from notpad with the html extension and it should work.

Or on second thinking, why not an aplication for children that reaches grandmaster level at high levels of play!

That's actually a good idea, Totally displacing chess was never the main purpose as is a very good game. I have newver programmed for mobile but it shouldn't be so hard. An aplication for children is wonderful. But I'm also thinking at something granmaster level, wtih a very strong AI that gives increasingly lower handicaps until impossible levels maybe, where the computer recieves a handicap from the player. That shouldn't block the player though!

It works now, have you done something HG? or I just copied stuff wrong the first time?

It works great for the other game, the one with archbishops!

The graphics are wrong, but the script works! For images it shows just cracked images!

I solved it, for some reason using open office instead of notepad does that, now I'll try to paste my own code!

Yes, I see the diagram there.

Well, it doesn't show a diagram of elven chess, but the own text of the html, this is what it happens when I try to upload it on the website, too. What am I doing wrong?

Ok, thanks! I actually know nothing about JS but i'm good with general programming so I guess i'll handle myself!

In the meantime, I think I inadvertently posted 2 variants I did not suppose to, How do I delete them?

Ok, so only there! Thanks!

Still is a very useful tool, so thaks for it!

Thanks, H.G.

and I want my aanca to be able to stop after the wazir move!

How do I write the AAnca in betza's funny notation?

I guess I have to learn Betza's funny notation, which is not hard but i don't remember for example how to write a moving and capturing camel+moving ferz. Thanks for the food for thought H.G.

I think I have to do a bit of work with pieces like aanca, and maybe scrape the foul totally as it's difficult to implement- I am refering more to the freezing ability.

Thanks H.G.

Regarding my second to last comment I also changed some of the rules of the game!

H.G. I think you are sadly correct, but this doesn't stop my passion for inventing better games if possible!

I've managed to put in more beautiful diagrams. So what do the letters mean:

For the top diagram: R=Rook;W=Wizard;C=Champion;A=Aanca;G=Griffin;N=kNight (has also a zebra just move);B=Bishop;Q=Queen;P=Pawn

For the bottom diagram: R=Rook;Z=Zebra (has also a ferz just move);L=cameL (has also a wazir just move);E=modern Elephant(ferz+alfil+treaper just move);A=Archbishop;M=Marshall;N=kNight (has also a threeleaper just move);B=Bishop;Q=Queen;P=Pawn

In both games each player starts with a foul in hand. A foul may be placed during a move on a place vacated by a non-pawn piece moved for the first time. A foul imitates the last move of the opponent. A foul my imobilize kingwise adjacted pieces.

What do you guys think about these games, are they better that the originals? Are they good enough to be published?

I think I was not clear on a matter of outmost importance. The point of this small discussion I launched was to find objectively good variants to play, for that contributions to the same game by many variantists are welcomed, so tell me: Aurelian you did that good, that wrong., H.G. started it a little bit. I'm going to do a little self criticism too. A treaper (3,3) enhancement to the knight (the fact that is just move has no bearing here) could be a little be to long to be effective (espeacially in the opening) on a 10x10 board.

Kevin,

We live in the age of the internet, so playing online overcomes many of the problems related to not having enough material. I never played chess professionally but if i had the resources (I don't) I'd gladly organize chess variants events.

Fergus,

I am concern about the quality of the games, that is why I asked for advice from knoledgeble people. So any comments on the actual games? Or anyone else for that matter. Comments on the quality of my games are highly apreciated, as I am rather new.

Fergus,

I was thinking...

In the interest of natural evolution, do you think I should contact the inventors of said 3 variants, because I owe a great deal of inspiration from them and ask If I can publish my variants as fully fleged ones, so when it comes to that website that you were talking about, the variations on the otherwise very good variants would stand a chance on they're own. What I have actually done is take two good variants and combine what I considered their strengths into 2 new better, in my view, variations.

Secondly as FIDE already exists, if say someone persuades FIDE to accept 2,3 popular variants, absurdly speaking then definetly more people would learn and enjoy them.

I think, too shogi has a better chance of expanding than Omega or Great chess and partly from the very interesting gameplay, partly because a tradition exists already.

Secondly as FIDE already exists, if say someone persuades FIDE to accept 2,3 popular variants, absurdly speaking then definetly more people would learn and enjoy them.

I think, too shogi has a better chance of expanding than Omega or Great chess and partly from the very interesting gameplay, partly because a tradition exists already.

Chess variant popularizing it's not a top down effort , but designing good variants could be. I don't think evolution, in the sense of natural evolution, will shape most of the new variants but careful consideration of strengths and weaknesess of the game. That being said natural selection has maybe a place in it!

I would be curious if anyone could judge the ability of my enhancement for Omega, Grand and Betza chess variants (well adding a foul to betza chess it's not much of an enhancement), are apropriate for the next evolution of chess, meaning something accepted by FIDE or an equivalent organism in size, an going mainstream. I'm going for the scenario where chess gets strongly solved and they go for something else.

I think eventually board games will become an affair of the bots (until we become robot computers anyway- then who knows) because humans will never catch up, so maybe my endevour (and yours of course) of finding apropriate next evolutions of chess is pointles anyway, but I like to entertain the idea. What do you think on that matter?

Kevin,

I don't understand FWIW, but I wached live arimaa players losing to David Wu's bot. I think chess is dieing because of beeing close to beeing strongly solved. If new games are strongly solved so be it. But it will take time. In an older post H.G. Muller stated the games like Omega chess Grand chess(he did not actually used those examples but the point stays) will quickly become strongly solved. Maybe. And this is an issue. But we have to also take in consideration that an 18x18 chess game (GO is 19x19 but has much simpler rules) is impossible for humans.

I've said I have 2 purposes the second beeing creating a huge rich game for computers only. It is 18x18. Computers have no trouble playing for 1 week but humans do. Enough on that particular matter for now.

H.G.

I understand now what you are saying, but rules banning captures are akward. Are you suggesting adding such a rule to grand chess or omega chess (or my variations of them)? Minor pieces have also their atractiveness through chassing away pieces more easily and controlling the center from close range or at least a specific place. I think grand chess has enough major pieces and would benefit from adding weaker ones I guess. I understand you disagree on this specific matter.

I also believe that making the games a bit longer comes naturally. Games should become bigger and longer in order to increase complexity.

I, too play shogi on ocasions and I believe to be very interesting. I'm not quite sure what you meant by prolonging the strong pieces in relation with what I wrote.

I see this topic has been discussed before, so I'm cathing up, see you soon!

I see this topic has been discussed before so I'm catching up! See you soon!

Fergus,

I have written to you again an email at [email deleted] regarding an article I'd like to publish. Could you take a look! Is it worthy for publishing? Thanks!

I guess I was wrong earlier, a 12x12 with zebras and camels would work, an 14x12 with zebras and camels won't work, am I correct, HG?You were clear, it's just that I misread between the lines!

The point of this beeing that I'm going to work on my own machine learning AI for those games, starting in a few weeks or so, when this is done I'll publish the variants. I was hopping to pit my AI against Fairymax and maybe against the new ChessV, if Greg Strong is here and listens. I understand, sadly there isn't much chance for that!

I'm working on more large board variants. Among them there is one 15x10 and two 12x12. From your explanation I think a 12x12 variant with camels and zebras won't work either, which is sad. Am I correct?

Thanks, HG!

Me, again with two silly questions:

How many normal pawns a queen on a 12x12 board worth? We assume the pawn may promote to anything. I'm guessing 14-15 based on the progression given by omega chess and grand chess where the queen worth 11-12 pawns(n.b. the omega chess pawn is stronger as it promotes to anything, how much stronger is very difficult to say I guess).

What is the difference in strngth between a chess pawn and a berolina pawn. To me the chess pawn seems a bit more powerful is it has two capture moves (acording to HG Muller 2x as important as  regular moves); on the other hand the berolina prmoted more easy, assuming they promote to the same things that shold worth something. I think the difference if any is small; Is it neglijible?

I was goofing around with calculations of mobility for aanca and griffin, and I got a counter-intuitive result. I think my algorithm is wrong as it gives a slightly bigger mobility for the aanca on very crowded boards. As the board empties of course the griffin has more squares so a bigger mobility. The question is: Is my algoritm wrong claiming stronger aanca on very crowded boards or am I wrong stating the opposite?

Unrelated: What does aanca mean in spanish?