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Pancake. A piece that moves and captures like a non-royal King or a Nightrider-style cannon.[All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
Samson Marriner wrote on Sun, Sep 7, 2014 09:33 AM UTC:
I have another suggestion for the Queen piece, which is probably less interesting than the Jelly but more related to Bakeries: the Quiche. If a Rook is a Wazir-Rider, this is a Drunk-Elephant-Rider: may move as a forward or sideways Rook, or as a Bishop (frlRB). It is called a Quiche since it could be a shortened 'Queeshop'. This piece is about 1.5 pawns under a Queen (Queen - Half Bishop).

Pros (vs Jelly)
1. less confusing checkmate scenarios, if forward or sideways.
2. unless you're Heston Blumenthal, you probably shouldn't bake jelly.
3. same development ideas as Queens.
Cons (vs Jelly)
1. no other Camel or Zebra movers (Jelly)
2. trouble forcing mate alone (Quiche)
3. arbitrary, boring move (Quiche)
4. Queens completely swallow (Quiche) (metaphor). 

Another undecided factor is piece order: I suggest Pancake, Doughnut, Waffle from the Rook squares in.

danielmacduff wrote on Mon, Sep 1, 2014 02:14 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
The Queen could be the Upside Down cake.  It moves as a Rook up and then as a circular King until it turns sideways, when it can move as a Rook, wnd then as a circular king in the same direction u til it turns down, when it again moves as a Rook.  It can't leap, nor can it stop during the Circular King movement. Seems interesting.  It's a killer on an open board, but is completely dependent on one square being open.  Why the name and idea?  It's an Up-Side-Down KK.

Jörg Knappen wrote on Mon, Aug 11, 2014 01:09 PM UTC:
The Jelly is actually a nice suggestion for the Queen. I estimate it a little (about 0.5 to 1 pawns) weaker than a Queen. This weakness is overcompensated by the overall strength of the rest of the Bakery Bombers.
Since the Jelly is an extended Bison (LJ or Camel-Zebra compound) it has the can-mate property.

The Jelly is a tactically very dangerous piece because it has many immanent threats against the pieces on the opposite baseline. Against the FIDE army, it can enforce "Queen exchange" with the manoeuvre 1. Jelly b3 e6 2. Jelly e5 -- Black gets two moves for a nominally bad exchange, maybe not that bad. Black can save the castling rights at the expense of one move by answering 2. ... Nc6.

I checked that there are no immediate other dangers, 1 ... e6 is an almost universal weapon against early Jelly attacks. 

I have not tried the other canonical armies of Chess with Different Armies yet, they may have weaknesses against a Jelly on d1. I also have not yet checked whether other piece may orchestrate an early Jelly attack.

Samson Marriner wrote on Fri, Jul 25, 2014 08:00 PM UTC:
idea for the Queen piece: Jelly (although that isn't baking, it's still confectionery). It moves as a Zebra, a Camel, or a Alfil. Funny Notation: JLA, Alfil to empower it and because there is no Funny Notation Y or E.

If this is underpowered its Zebra and Camel moves can be Cylindrical.

If the Alfil move is Cylindrical, this piece is too powerful on turn 1.

gnohmon wrote on Wed, Jan 22, 2003 04:46 AM UTC:
So many comments!

I was thinking of having the Q be Pancake plus Doughnut, hoping that the
all-short-range army would be slightly weak and that the extra (and
somewhat undependable) power of the pNN components would merely balance
that. I wanted to call this piece the Profitterol. It sounds like Pizza
King experience shows that an all-short army is not weak.

Also, because Pancake can mate and Doughnut can mate (i think) and 2
Waffles can mate, the Bakers have a certain endgame advantage, a few
percentage points of extra wins.

Sounds like consensus is we need at least half an atom less than full
Queen. Therefore, NADmW, call it the Cruller, hits the two-space ring
around it and also can move not capture as W. I've always found this piece
to be a bit weak compared to its expectations, which is even better for
the balance here.

By the way, the weak Waffle, mWA, sounds like a great piece. It's going to
be very frustrating to use, so when you manage to get it to do some good
work in a position you'll feel triumphant.

The DAmF has been tried, and it was hard to use; it was hard to remember
that the F move was non-capturing, so one would often err in
combinations.

A whole army of pieces that are frustrating and difficult to use? Ouch!

I say try the Cruller, see if it works.

John Lawson wrote on Wed, Jan 22, 2003 04:12 AM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
In the original concept of the Pizza Kings, the Meatball (Queen) was a
WFDAN.  This was, in practice, too strong, and I weakened it to a WFDAfN,
which seemed to be just right for that army.  (This was one of those cases
where the theme had to yield.)
Also, I've lately been playing Exchess, which includes a piece (Veteran)
whose movement is K+N.  On an 8x8 board, I find it to be almost as useful
as a major piece (Q, B+N, or R+N), and if you can get it across the board,
it is excellent at supporting threats by the more long-range pieces.  I
would expect a Pancake to be similar in strength.
Since we now have the Bakery Bombers, as well as the Pizza Kings as CWDA
experimental armies, maybe players' appetites have been whetted for the
other armies I suggested, the Beer Batterers and the Avenging Appetizers.

smakarov wrote on Wed, Jan 22, 2003 01:13 AM UTC:Good ★★★★
Pancake has to jump over another piece to capture, so no threats in the opening. Michael Howe's worries stack down to a couple of blocked pawns at best..

Michael Nelson wrote on Wed, Jan 22, 2003 12:06 AM UTC:
Perhaps the army could use Joseph's Danish--say by replacing the Waffles with WmA's. this would add up about right and would give an unusual material balance (topheavy, but not as much as the Amazon Army). But what would we call the modified Waffles?

Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Jan 21, 2003 11:20 PM UTC:
According to Ralph's system, a WFDAN is actually more than a Q on an 8x8 board. A Q strength piece is about 2.5 Knights -- a WFDAN is 3 Knights. That puts it 1/2 way between a Queen and an Amazon -- Raven territory, or Queen + Crab.

Joseph DiMuro wrote on Tue, Jan 21, 2003 11:13 PM UTC:
Or, instead of adding the cannon-Knightrider component, add the ability to
move like a Ferz. The resulting piece covers ALL squares within a 2-square
radius. I'm surprised no previous experimental army for CWDA includes this
Queen-strength piece. Maybe it's time...

Adrian King's Typhoon calls it a Lioness, but for this game... how about a
Danish, since it includes DAN among its move options? :-)

Michael Nelson wrote on Tue, Jan 21, 2003 10:00 PM UTC:Excellent ★★★★★
Interesting piece and an interesting CWDA army. 

I would guess the Pancake would be a very strong minor piece--maybe even a
weak major piece, as the non-royal King is very strong by itself and the
cannon-Nightrider, while useless in the endgame, is potentiallly deadly in
the opening and in closed position middlegames. Probably equal to the Rook
very early, declining to a quantum or two better than the Bishop very
late.

Perhaps the Queen would combine the Waffle and Donut. This piece carpet
bombs the 2-square radius around it and the Wazir move helps with
positioning it favorably--though a Ferz move would be more useful.  It
this is a little weak, maybe add the cannon-Nightrider component from the
Pancake. 

With this sort of Queen, the army will have some of the feel of the Pizza
Kings (no long range pieces, good short range coverage), but the
cannon-Nightrider will add a new element.

Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Jan 21, 2003 08:06 PM UTC:
OK, I've added some text to hopefully clear up the pNN portion of the move.

Peter Aronson wrote on Tue, Jan 21, 2003 07:57 PM UTC:
Ben, Ralph is using 'Cannon-style' to mean like a Grasshopper, but not required to land on the first square past the hurdle. In funny notation a Pao is mRcpR.

Ben Good wrote on Tue, Jan 21, 2003 07:46 PM UTC:
this piece is unclear to me. does it only move as a knightrider when capturing? or does it also have the option of making a noncapturing knightrider? 'cannon-style' would imply that it does, but your comments imply that it does not.

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