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SELECT * FROM Comment WHERE IsDeleted=0 AND ItemID = 'MScourier-chess-moderno' ORDER BY CommentID ASC LIMIT 25

This item is a game information page,
It belongs to categories: Orthodox chess, 
It is a 2 player game.
It was last modified on: 2008-12-27
 By Jose  Carrillo. Courier Chess Moderno. (12x8, Cells: 96) [All Comments] [Add Comment or Rating]
John Smith wrote on 2008-12-28 UTCGood ★★★★
Despite the improvement of the game via the Pawns and Elephants (and, of course, the modern rules), there are still two ridiculously weak pieces in the game: namely, the Queen and Schleich. I would recommend combining them into another Man, and using the Bishop Adjustment Rule.
Jose Carrillo wrote on 2008-12-28 UTC
I admit the queen and schleich are weak pieces, specially the schleich. I played a OTB game and ended up with two queens (on the same color) and a schleich versus a lonely king, and wasn't able to force a mate, so I had to agree to a draw. But that was before I adopted the 'Bare King' rule, which would mean that even the two queens and schleich ending would be a win.

I play a lot of Makruk (Thai Chess) so I know how to mate with three queens (one of opposite color) and I find that ending quite enjoyable. I'm not too crazy about the schleich, but replacing it with another Man would be replacing it with a too powerful piece, plus in my view, it would take away the 'flavour' of Courier Chess.

While slow, the Schleich can actually reach all 96 squares on the board (something a Queen can't do), and the Schleich can be used as a defensive piece protecting any piece horizontally or vertically next to it.

From playing practice it appears that the Man and the new Elephant are similar in power with the Bishop (Courier), so now you have four pieces that can be exchanged between them (Bishop for Knight, for Elephant or for Man; Knight for Elephant or Man; Elephant for Man) and still keep a balanced and interesting game. I don't intend to remove the original queen; and I will keep the schleich for another while, the jury is still out.

The Bishop Adjustment rule is intended for variants where the Bishops start up on the same color, which is not the case (so far) for Courier Chess and it's variants.

Thanks for your feedback.
John Smith wrote on 2008-12-28 UTC
I would recommend combining them into another Man, and using the Bishop Adjustment Rule.

Note the 'and'. If they are combined into another Man, the board will have the Couriers on the same colour if the board is appropriately reduced. You can also use a 'Queen Adjustment Rule' in your standard variant. Also, the Knight and the Bishop, and perhaps the Man, are much weaker than the Courier on this board. Garry Kasparov has said this to even be true in many cases in FIDE Chess.
Jose Carrillo wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
I didn't understand from your previous comment that you were suggesting reducing the board size to 11x8.

Looks like an interesting option.

Thanks for the idea.
H. G. Muller wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
On an 8x8 board KWFFK (W=Wazir=Sleich, F=Ferz=Queen)is generally won, both with like and unlike Ferzes. It is hard to believe tht 12x8 would be different. (It is usually the narrowest dimension that counts.) KMK (M=Man) is totally won on any Nx8 board, and a pack of two unlike F plus a W seems much stronger than a Man. KFF already are pretty efficient driving a bare King into a corner. The problem is that the mate positions are not reachable due to stalemate
Jose Carrillo wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
Yes, I easily won a KMK ending. But traveled all over the board with the KWFFK ending (both F on the same color), I could not find the mate sequence in the time left on the clock, so agreed to a draw. I'll try it again now without the time pressure to prepare myself for the next time I find myself in that situation.
John Smith wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
I still wonder why you would allow a Queen on just one colour per side, with your experience with Modern Chess' Bishop Adjustment Rule. Perhaps it is counteracted by your experience with Makruk? By the way, having Queens of both sides on the same colour makes the game more passive. Have you not played a Bishop endgame?
Jose Carrillo wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
Agreed. My exposure to Makruk has helped me find a newfound love for the tiny limited old queens (Ferz).

My original intention for Courier Chess Moderno was to create a variant that still had a Courier Chess flavour, and I feel that adding the modern powerful queen to the game is a step too drastic.

I must admit, the OTB Courier Chess Moderno games I played were quite exciting and interesting without the powerful queen. Try it out!

I'm working on a couple Mini Courier Chess Moderno ideas, where I'm getting rid of the Ferz and the Wazir, shrinking the board, and still utilizing my new Elephant, which counteracts very well the colorbound Bishops (Couriers).

I will also experiment with your 11x8 board suggestion with the Bishop's Adjustment rule, although I fear that the odd shape 11x8 board might hinder the popularity of such a variant.
John Smith wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
So not even a Queen Adjustment Rule? I didn't say it had to be the modern Queen.
Jose Carrillo wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
I do not need a 'Queen' adjustment rule in Courier Chess Moderno.

The Queens already start off in the same color squares, thanks to the Reverse Symmetry.

Any new Queens on the board will get their colored square based on the luck of their pawn promotions.

The next improvement I see for the Queen is to get the moves of the Man or Commoner in a smaller board. That's what I'm trying in my Mini Courier tests in progress.
David Paulowich wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
Dave McCooey Fairy endgames with 3 pieces on 8x8 board:
 
     ------------------------------------------------------------------
     |||||        Longest Wins for the Strong Side (WHITE)        |||||
     |||||   (strong side has 3 pieces, weak side has 0 pieces)   |||||
     ------------------------------------------------------------------

KWWFvK is mate in 46 moves.
KWFFvK is mate in either 39 moves or 50 moves 
(longer mate for both F on the same color).
John Smith wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
Then could you not apply the same logic to Modern Chess Bishops? Sorry if I'm seeming argumentative. Another alternative would be to have a Wazir Queen, and two Ferz Schleiches flanking the King and Queen, since you seem to like weak pieces.
Jose Carrillo wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
Great David! Thanks!

Where do I find Dave McCooey's work? Is there a web link? or is it in a book?

Edit - I found it!

Although this work is statistical only. I'll still have to figure out the pattern and play out the mate.
Jose Carrillo wrote on 2008-12-29 UTC
Then could you not apply the same logic to Modern Chess Bishops?

No. The Modern Chess board is 9x9, and already has Reverse Symmery. Even without the Reverse Symmetry, the Bishops would end up on the same color.

If you want to continue discussing Modern Chess or the Bishop Adjustment Rule lets do it here (for Modern Chess) or here (for Bishop Adjustment).

Thanks.

Sorry if I'm seeming argumentative.

Not at all. Friendly dialogue is always healthy.

...since you seem to like weak pieces

Not at all again (I quite like the strong Prime Minister [Bishop+Knight]). I just don't want to stray away too much in this variant from the Courier Chess flavour.
Jose Carrillo wrote on 2008-12-30 UTC
I setup the following Courier Chess position in Zillions of Games with a King, Schleich and two Queens on the same color squares versus King, and was able to mate in 34 moves! The secret was to keep the Schleich on the 2nd row of the corner where I was going to mate Black's lonely King, and to push Black's King over to the corner pretty much with my White King.


1.Qd2 Kg7 2.Kg2 Kf6 3.Kf3 Ke5 4.Sh2 Kf6 5.Kg4 Ke5 6.Kg5 Ke4 7.Qf2 Kd3 8.Qfe3 Ke4 9.Kg4 Kd3 10.Kf4 Kc4 11.Ke4 Kb5 12.Kd5 Kb4 13.Sg2 Ka4 14.Kc5 Kb3 15.Sf2 Ka4 16.Qc3 Kb3 17.Qed4 Ka4 18.Se2 Ka5 19.Sd2 Ka6 20.Kc6 Ka5 21.Qc5 Ka4 22.Kb6 Kb3 23.Q5d4 Ka4 24.Ka6 Ka3 25.Ka5 Kb3 26.Kb5 Ka3 27.Qc5 Kb3 28.Q5b4 Ka2 29.Kc4 Kb1 30.Kb3 Kc1 31.Qa3 Kb1 32.Sc2 Ka1 33.Qcb2+ Kb1 34.Sc1# mate!

I'm now ready next time I find this endgame!

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